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Originally posted by mezzir So then you think that gay marriage should be perfectly legal?

For me I think it should be legal. I see the problem right now is that some people don't quite understand that there are two different types of marriage. There is the legal arrangement codified under law and there is the religious sacrament. These two things are independent of each other despite the fact that they often co-exist. When Mrs. Hazard and I got married we received the sacrament of marriage by way of a mass within the church, then we entered into the legal arrangement of marriage by completing and submitting the appropriate documentation to the Province of Ontario. If you separate the two marriages then this entire question of homosexual marriage becomes quite easy to deal with. All should have the same rights under the law; if heterosexuals are permitted to enter into a legal cohabitational agreement defined as marriage under the law of a given state then homosexuals should be suffered that same right. Who does and does not qualify to receive the sacrament of marriage must be determined by the church bestowing said sacrament, as this is their exclusive domain. The religious and legal aspects of marriage do not need to be conjoined; subsequently, there really should be no consideration of religious arguments when addressing the question of whether or not the state should allow homosexuals to enter the legal arrangement termed marriage under the law.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard For me I think it should be legal. I see the problem right now is that some people don't quite understand that there are two different types of marriage. There is the legal arrangement codified under law and there is the religious sacrament. These two things are independent of each other despite the fact that they often co-exist. When Mrs. Hazard and I got married we received the sacrament of marriage by way of a mass within the church, then we entered into the legal arrangement of marriage by completing and submitting the appropriate documentation to the Province of Ontario. If you separate the two marriages then this entire question of homosexual marriage becomes quite easy to deal with. All should have the same rights under the law; if heterosexuals are permitted to enter into a legal cohabitational agreement defined as marriage under the law of a given state then homosexuals should be suffered that same right. Who does and does not qualify to receive the sacrament of marriage must be determined by the church bestowing said sacrament, as this is their exclusive domain. The religious and legal aspects of marriage do not need to be conjoined; subsequently, there really should be no consideration of religious arguments when addressing the question of whether or not the state should allow homosexuals to enter the legal arrangement termed marriage under the law.

You are 100% correct here. There is no reason at all for gay people to not be allowed to enter into a legal marriage except the hatred and discrimination against them that is rooted in religious beliefs. If your religion doesn't want to let two men or two women have a recognized marriage under that religion then fine, that is their business. But I challenge those religious wackos to come up with even one rational legitimate argument for why gay people shouldn't be able to have a legally recognized marriage.

Hell, I'm Catholic (not practicing obviously) but when I got married I didn't get married in a ceremony at a Catholic church, so I have a legal marriage but didn't get the Catholic sacrament of marriage. I actually got into a discussion with a religious wackjob who honestly believes that even though I'm legally married and faithful to my wife I am currently living in sin in God's eyes and I will go to hell because my wife and I are not really married since I didn't have a Catholic wedding. I think this "Catholic" completely forgot to listen to the teachings of Jesus. I like talking to people like her every now and then, they remind me of exactly why I refuse to be a part of any kind of organized religion.

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Originally posted by XaNaX You are 100% correct here. There is no reason at all for gay people to not be allowed to enter into a legal marriage except the hatred and discrimination against them that is rooted in religious beliefs. If your religion doesn't want to let two men or two women have a recognized marriage under that religion then fine, that is their business. But I challenge those religious wackos to come up with even one rational legitimate argument for why gay people shouldn't be able to have a legally recognized marriage.

Just as a point of order... I know a number of non-religious people who also do not believe that homosexuals should be "married." From what I've been able to gather from them this position is rooted in a believe that a homosexual relationship is not valid or does not have the same merit as a heterosexual one therefore allowing them to enter into a relationship termed marriage devalues there own marriage. As these people are not religious this believe is not born from religious convictions. My point is that discrimination against homosexuals is not entirely a function of religious believes.

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Hell, I'm Catholic (not practicing obviously) but when I got married I didn't get married in a ceremony at a Catholic church, so I have a legal marriage but didn't get the Catholic sacrament of marriage. I actually got into a discussion with a religious wackjob who honestly believes that even though I'm legally married and faithful to my wife I am currently living in sin in God's eyes and I will go to hell because my wife and I are not really married since I didn't have a Catholic wedding. I think this "Catholic" completely forgot to listen to the teachings of Jesus. I like talking to people like her every now and then, they remind me of exactly why I refuse to be a part of any kind of organized religion.

These types of "Christians" do a great disservice to all, as they spread misinformation based on misunderstanding. Anyone who actually understands the Catholic faith would feel badly for you that you did not get to enjoy the sacrament; however, would never suggest that this is a hell-worthy trespass; in truth, those who really understand their faith believe there are no hell-worth trespasses other then a rejection of all that is of God.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Just as a point of order... I know a number of non-religious people who also do not believe that homosexuals should be "married." From what I've been able to gather from them this position is rooted in a believe that a homosexual relationship is not valid or does not have the same merit as a heterosexual one therefore allowing them to enter into a relationship termed marriage devalues there own marriage. As these people are not religious this believe is not born from religious convictions. My point is that discrimination against homosexuals is not entirely a function of religious believes.

this is true, and to these people I always say that the divorce rate in heterosexual marriage is in excess of 50%, what can gay people possibly do to devalue marriage that we haven't already done ourselves?

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard those who really understand their faith believe there are no hell-worth trespasses other then a rejection of all that is of God.

Just curious what you mean by 'a rejection of all that is of god'.

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Originally posted by RickyM Just curious what you mean by 'a rejection of all that is of god'.

Why dont you just take your curiosity somewhere else.

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Originally posted by RickyM Just curious what you mean by 'a rejection of all that is of god'.

A rejection of all things that flow from god... to put it in exceedingly simple terms... a rejection of love, joy, and life.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by Subtle Why dont you just take your curiosity somewhere else.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard A rejection of all things that flow from god... to put it in exceedingly simple terms... a rejection of love, joy, and life.

So...don't be a miserable bastard and you'll be alright?

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Originally posted by RickyM So...don't be a miserable bastard and you'll be alright?

Essentially. The belief of the Catholic church is that one chooses damnation (not that we would really use that term in an actual theological discussion) by rejecting God's love, which means rejecting all love and life, as we believe all love and life is a derivative of God's love. So yeah, don't be a miserable bastard... don't believe that you don't deserve love, and you should be okay... if we're right... (not that I have too much faith that anyone is exactly right on this issue).

*** edit... can we get back to homosexual marriage now... since we've really strayed into a side discussion, which should (IMO) have zero bearing on the right of homosexuals to legally marry.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

God is an Equal Opportunity Lover

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Essentially. The belief of the Catholic church is that one chooses damnation (not that we would really use that term in an actual theological discussion) by rejecting God's love, which means rejecting all love and life, as we believe all love and life is a derivative of God's love. So yeah, don't be a miserable bastard... don't believe that you don't deserve love, and you should be okay... if we're right... (not that I have too much faith that anyone is exactly right on this issue).

Certainly sounds more reasonble on god's part anyway...

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