quote:

Originally posted by rT19 iv been thinking about the same things for awhile now.

No, I don't think that you have.

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Originally posted by Lira And they disappeared how?

Cloaking devices maybe? I'm not sure that's evolutionarily possible but fuck it, creationists can say whatever they want and convince millions of people of it

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Originally posted by Aortik No, I don't think that you have.

yes i haS!

If anything would make me religious, that definitely wouldn't be fear of hell. Dunno. :[

Edit: Since it's your thread, what's hell? :]]

a) So glad I grew up in a country not founded by Puritans.

b) Religion is a form of blackmail (be good or you'll suffer!)

c) I've basically never believed in a god, despite a religious education from age 5 through to 18.

d) I don't believe in hell, so it doesn't worry me.

d) I'm not afraid of death. Really. It seems strange for someone my age, but I can honestly say I've accepted that my life will end and that there will be nothing left of me afterwards - just as well as a terminally ill patient or a 100 year old on their death bed. I don't believe in reincarnation or the afterlife.

e) Religion is a crutch for people who can't accept reality (i.e death). My firm belief is that it was originally formed to help people cope with things outside of their control (crops dying due to weather - oh noes, God is smiting us), and has since become entirely irrelevant as a result. It was also a way of helping people feel like they belong to something; the same way goths dress the way they do and people join sports clubs these days. Again, often the devices of weak people with no self-constitution or sense of their place in the world.

f) I respect religion's ideals of love, peace and living with good morals, however I don't think you need to attend church, have sacraments and observe religious holidays to live like this. In modern times, we should just be able to abide by this ourselves, knowing it's the right thing to do.

g) Too much of religion is outmoded. In 500BC, it made sense for Jews not to eat pork due to hygiene, but now it's just stupid.

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Mix archive | Melbourne club guide

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I think the fear of hell was what really made me start taking religion seriously in the first place. Eighth grade was when it started to click for me, so I started going to church a lot more and reading the Bible. Then in high school I also developed a conviction that the survival of Christianity was vital to the preservation of Western culture. I stopped going to church in my freshman year of college. I was going out with a girl (still my girlfriend today) but I felt uncomfortable about dating her because she was a non-Christian. I think I can remember her asking me wonderingly why I was a Christian and not being able to give a very good answer, which bothered me. I can remember, at that time, sort of wishing that I wasn't a Christian, so that our belief systems would mesh together more neatly. Then I tried to look at the beliefs I had affirmed for years from the outside, to see how strong or weak they looked when I stepped beyond the assumptions that guided my religious views. I guess I was trying to deconstruct my faith, extirpate it from my mind. And I can remember a specific day, sitting on a bench in the sun and thinking about this, and feeling something inside myself sort of like what you might feel after a breakup, or when someone you really like rejects you. Maybe that was the point when I "lost faith." At night I would half-dream about being sent to hell for not believing, and in some of these twisted visions my girlfriend or parents would be there, too, being tortured alongside me. Eventually these thoughts stopped, but occasionally they still resurface. Fear excited over and over again can stay burned into your head even after you've concluded that it's irrational. Sometimes I find myself frightened by the possibility that maybe I'm really wrong not to believe in God and that when I die I'll be sent to hell and suffer eternally for being a non-believer. Maybe in spite of having thought pretty carefully about religion, I reached the wrong conclusions. Yeah, a lot of the ideas in religions don't make any sense to me, and the evidence in their favor really seems spare to non-existent, and it seems like most of the world's smartest people don't put much stock in the fire and brimstone stuff (even if some pretty smart ones are religious in other senses), but it seems like my ideas about what "makes sense" or what constitutes "good evidence" could be off-kilter in some way, and I could end up believing the wrong things because of that. And then I wonder whether I could ever genuinely worship a god who chose to deal out eternal pain to those who didn't believe in him, even if I were convinced there was good evidence for his existence. I'm leaning toward "no." I have been up all night.

honestly, belief in hell would have to be up there with the most gullible traits in humans today. First you must believe in god. THEN you must believe in a god that watches you and cares how you behave. THEN you must believe in some kind of afterlife punishment.

That's 3 pretty huge, unsubstantiated premises to swallow imo.

If the christian god of the bible really cared about how his children behaved, he would have written the bible himself and excluded all the nonsense in it. Ill never understand why he permits such a bastardised biography to remain on the shelves, especially since he's had 2000 years to bring out a new addition. Yes yes I know 'love thy neighbour and thy god'; but you'll find plenty of christians that tell you that god hates fags too because its "in the bible" so you see my point.

Hell is a form of social control and nothing more.

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My fear of hell is ranked just bellow my fear of being eaten alive by ants at home, and just above my fear of koala bears.



If you think about heaven and hell for more than 5 seconds, logically, imo there is no way either of them can be real.

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quote:

Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

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Originally posted by Lira Funny how this is bound to culture: I used to be afraid of reincarnation as a teenager. Despite my Christian upbringing, my family is deeply influenced by kardecism. It's a sect that originated in France and is quite popular where I live (most of my friends have either been kardecistss or have kardecism parents). It's a weird blending of Christianity, Darwinism, and Hinduism. According to kardecist thought, the afterlife is pretty much like ordinary life, but there are different levels and whatnot. And then, there's rebirth. You die, you go some place else where you're punished/praised/whatevered, and then you're back - either to planet Earth or to some other more/less advanced planet. And I grew up being told such was (after)life. It really bothered me. Was I stuck this stupid cycle of death and rebirth, earning mana and karma, with no memory card to save my progress so I could take a moral holiday!? When did I agree to take part in this messed up world? Why couldn't I just leave without being punished and then brought back? (being a Christian sect, suicide was frowned upon). This rebellion, so to speak, didn't last more than 6 months, though. Being in contact with orthodox Christianity and Buddhism, and always having had a thing for agnosticism/atheism (I was expelled from a Catholic Elementary school for being an heretic ), I quickly threw the religious baby out and kept the moral bathwater. Now, don't you think your fear of hell is just as absurd as my fear of being reborn? The difference is just the social context you find yourself in

you know when i was reading this post i realized i'm a lot like you when it comes to religion. never heard of kardecism though but sounds very interesting as i was brought up catholic and like darwinism, buddhism and athiesm

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My soliloquy may be hard for some to swallow, but so is cod liver oil.

quote:

Originally posted by notelfreak man i can't believe i tried to come off as responsible in that other thread, i am so full of shit just don't tell anyone

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I think the fear of hell was what really made me start taking religion seriously in the first place. Eighth grade was when it started to click for me, so I started going to church a lot more and reading the Bible. Then in high school I also developed a conviction that the survival of Christianity was vital to the preservation of Western culture. I stopped going to church in my freshman year of college. I was going out with a girl (still my girlfriend today) but I felt uncomfortable about dating her because she was a non-Christian. I think I can remember her asking me wonderingly why I was a Christian and not being able to give a very good answer, which bothered me. I can remember, at that time, sort of wishing that I wasn't a Christian, so that our belief systems would mesh together more neatly. Then I tried to look at the beliefs I had affirmed for years from the outside, to see how strong or weak they looked when I stepped beyond the assumptions that guided my religious views. I guess I was trying to deconstruct my faith, extirpate it from my mind. And I can remember a specific day, sitting on a bench in the sun and thinking about this, and feeling something inside myself sort of like what you might feel after a breakup, or when someone you really like rejects you. Maybe that was the point when I "lost faith." At night I would half-dream about being sent to hell for not believing, and in some of these twisted visions my girlfriend or parents would be there, too, being tortured alongside me. Eventually these thoughts stopped, but occasionally they still resurface. Fear excited over and over again can stay burned into your head even after you've concluded that it's irrational. Sometimes I find myself frightened by the possibility that maybe I'm really wrong not to believe in God and that when I die I'll be sent to hell and suffer eternally for being a non-believer. Maybe in spite of having thought pretty carefully about religion, I reached the wrong conclusions. Yeah, a lot of the ideas in religions don't make any sense to me, and the evidence in their favor really seems spare to non-existent, and it seems like most of the world's smartest people don't put much stock in the fire and brimstone stuff (even if some pretty smart ones are religious in other senses), but it seems like my ideas about what "makes sense" or what constitutes "good evidence" could be off-kilter in some way, and I could end up believing the wrong things because of that. And then I wonder whether I could ever genuinely worship a god who chose to deal out eternal pain to those who didn't believe in him, even if I were convinced there was good evidence for his existence. I'm leaning toward "no." I have been up all night.

Jesus (PUN INTENDED IN ORDER TO PISS OFF RELIGIOUS GUYS BY MENTIONING THE NAME OF GOD IN VAIN), you're even more of a whiner and over-analyser than I am. How in hell (LOLOLOLOL) are you getting pussy and I'm not?

Now, past that, I agree... definitely find many similarities with your story. I still have some fear of hell, although I've pretty much reached the conclusion that its existence is bullshit and illogical. It's just the fact we were raised since little kids for many years with that idea being shoved down our minds. It's still sitting there in the almost-unconscious, despite the logical part of my mind having thrown away that idea as ridiculous.

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sempre contra a corrente do jogo

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Your fear and doubt seem to be born of an imperfect understanding of Christianity. First and foremost; the church (RC, which should be taken as the most authoritative voice on Christianity... of course I'm somewhat biased) does not and has never held the position that one must be a Christian (of any sect) in order to enter "the kingdom of heaven." You need not fear hell because you do not believe. Second; there is no physical hell (official church position); rather, hell is a state of anguish the soul experiences as a result of not receiving the love of God. Third; God does not choose to deal out eternal pain; rather, the individual chooses to suffer it themselves by rejecting God's love... God extends his love to all equally regardless of whether or not we believe we merit it. Finally, hell is not an eternal state, the suffering only lasts as long as one rejects love; however, given that the afterlife is not a physical place any discussion of time in regards to the afterlife is pure folly, as time only exists in a physical world. I suspect you received a particular bent of religious instruction as a child and require a fuller understanding... with that your fears would dissolve.

i hate to bring this topic up once again, but just because this is what YOU believe doesn't make it any more wrong/right than christians who disagree with you.

For instance, the jehovah's witnesses believe 'hell' is a mistranslated term that simply means non-life, so when a soul goes to hell it simply isn't reborn in the kingdom of god but doesn’t suffer.

And a quick google found some interesting references to hell, and it sounds like a real, kinda warm place to me

quote:

Matthew 13:42: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 25:46: " And these shall go away into everlasting punishment." Mark 9:43-48: "...it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched"

Now, I have no doubt that your vast knowledge knows some pretty nifty "side-steps" of why these comments are allegorical or metaphorical etc, but again that's problematic as we have no reference or yardstick to measure the validity of any sentiment contained in the bible. I mean, 13:42, surely if anyone knew what lay for in store for us re hell, it would be the big man's son??

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Assuming most people on here follow some form of Christianity, do you guys see it surviving until 2100?

I know some parts of America are very strong religiously, but here in Australia I see Christianity declining more and more every day. When I was a kid, mass would always be packed on the rare occasion that my family went. Now, it's always pretty empty.

I don't think know a single person under the age of 30 who has a firm belief and respect for God and Christianity, and I think that in another hundred or so years, religion will be almost dead.

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Mix archive | Melbourne club guide

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I think the fear of hell was what really made me start taking religion seriously in the first place. Eighth grade was when it started to click for me, so I started going to church a lot more and reading the Bible. Then in high school I also developed a conviction that the survival of Christianity was vital to the preservation of Western culture. I stopped going to church in my freshman year of college. I was going out with a girl (still my girlfriend today) but I felt uncomfortable about dating her because she was a non-Christian. I think I can remember her asking me wonderingly why I was a Christian and not being able to give a very good answer, which bothered me. I can remember, at that time, sort of wishing that I wasn't a Christian, so that our belief systems would mesh together more neatly. Then I tried to look at the beliefs I had affirmed for years from the outside, to see how strong or weak they looked when I stepped beyond the assumptions that guided my religious views. I guess I was trying to deconstruct my faith, extirpate it from my mind. And I can remember a specific day, sitting on a bench in the sun and thinking about this, and feeling something inside myself sort of like what you might feel after a breakup, or when someone you really like rejects you. Maybe that was the point when I "lost faith." At night I would half-dream about being sent to hell for not believing, and in some of these twisted visions my girlfriend or parents would be there, too, being tortured alongside me. Eventually these thoughts stopped, but occasionally they still resurface. Fear excited over and over again can stay burned into your head even after you've concluded that it's irrational. Sometimes I find myself frightened by the possibility that maybe I'm really wrong not to believe in God and that when I die I'll be sent to hell and suffer eternally for being a non-believer. Maybe in spite of having thought pretty carefully about religion, I reached the wrong conclusions. Yeah, a lot of the ideas in religions don't make any sense to me, and the evidence in their favor really seems spare to non-existent, and it seems like most of the world's smartest people don't put much stock in the fire and brimstone stuff (even if some pretty smart ones are religious in other senses), but it seems like my ideas about what "makes sense" or what constitutes "good evidence" could be off-kilter in some way, and I could end up believing the wrong things because of that. And then I wonder whether I could ever genuinely worship a god who chose to deal out eternal pain to those who didn't believe in him, even if I were convinced there was good evidence for his existence. I'm leaning toward "no." I have been up all night.

Maybe this will help in directions:

http://bible.ca/