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Originally posted by bigjimslade002 and you do NOT wanna make boris the bear angry

btw i never knew there was a comic series called BTB. this alt got a name randomly

i love africa

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Originally posted by ******** Ever hear of the out of Africa theory.... if they have stuff there they won't need to be refugees here. I would like to go to Africa... it'd be awsome if I could get a paying TEFL placement there.

Ever heard of what I call the 'aide paradox'? I made up the name but not the concept. For example, you send humanitarian food aide to some impoverished corrupt African country. The local food producers now have to compete against free food (aide) coming in from the outside. The local food producers inevitably shut down because how can anyone compete against something that is free? They can't. The paradox is that good intentions in helping these countries actually hurts them in the end. This is very similar to something I'v already mentioned...the welfare trap. They have no incentive to become self-sufficient, and so they continue to rely on foreign aide instead of building up their own economies and social institutions.

Dude, that's not how aid works at all. Don't confuse aid with humanitarian relief - the World Food Programme primarily operates in famine conditions and refugee camps. It's not like the development industry's sole purpose is handing out granola bars.

And in any case, almost all food aid is monetized these days, allowing recipients to buy food from local producers. It's more like consumer subsidies really.

Again, if you're going to make the case for this "welfare" trap you speak of, you should really include empirical examples so we can get an actual discussion going. Throwing out points of view without substance is pointless for both parties.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Dude, that's not how aid works at all. Don't confuse aid with humanitarian relief - the World Food Programme primarily operates in famine conditions and refugee camps. It's not like the development industry's sole purpose is handing out granola bars. And in any case, almost all food aid is monetized these days, allowing recipients to buy food from local producers. It's more like consumer subsidies really. Again, if you're going to make the case for this "welfare" trap you speak of, you should really include empirical examples so we can get an actual discussion going. Throwing out points of view without substance is pointless for both parties.

Didn't know there was a difference. I may not have explained it to your satisfaction, but maybe this wall street journal article will...

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Giving alms to Africa remains one of the biggest ideas of our time -- millions march for it, governments are judged by it, celebrities proselytize the need for it. Calls for more aid to Africa are growing louder, with advocates pushing for doubling the roughly $50 billion of international assistance that already goes to Africa each year. Yet evidence overwhelmingly demonstrates that aid to Africa has made the poor poorer, and the growth slower. The insidious aid culture has left African countries more debt-laden, more inflation-prone, more vulnerable to the vagaries of the currency markets and more unattractive to higher-quality investment. It's increased the risk of civil conflict and unrest (the fact that over 60% of sub-Saharan Africa's population is under the age of 24 with few economic prospects is a cause for worry). Aid is an unmitigated political, economic and humanitarian disaster.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123758895999200083.html

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov To the average Westerner, Africa isn't a place, it's a caricature.

'Afri-entalism'?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism

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Originally posted by Krypton I'm not going to advocate complete cut off of all aide to Africa. All I'm saying is, we need to help them, help themselves. I see a lot of Africa stuck in one massive welfare trap.

What do you think is being done at the moment? Yes, food is handed out, but a large amount of aid funding goes towards education and infrastructure. There's a framed poster on the wall beside me here at work because we sponsored a village in Zimbabwe called 'Kopa'. The poster states that 71 farmers were trained in correct agricultural techniques and provided with the tools and seeds they needed to employ those skills.

1) Accepting as has been said "Africa" isn't one country so it is dangerous to use that name.

2) Agree with Krypton really, the way I look at it the aid does distort the economy. Even the internal government administration of all the disparate aid streams must be a bit of a "brain drain" for local industry.

3) Hate to be harsh, but why exactly is a stable and well governed Africa good for us? Why is it our responsibility? In a totally equal world we'd be worse off.

I think point three is why it is held down, divided and controlled.

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Originally posted by Domesticated What do you think is being done at the moment? Yes, food is handed out, but a large amount of aid funding goes towards education and infrastructure. There's a framed poster on the wall beside me here at work because we sponsored a village in Zimbabwe called 'Kopa'. The poster states that 71 farmers were trained in correct agricultural techniques and provided with the tools and seeds they needed to employ those skills.

That's excellent. All I want is for aid to enable them to be self-sufficient, instead of being one giant welfare program. I also believe the way aid is being dispensed is improving too. Money was given to corrupt governments who just hoarded it for the elites. Now I think direct supervision is being done in many areas to prevent this.

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Originally posted by Dervish 3) Hate to be harsh, but why exactly is a stable and well governed Africa good for us? Why is it our responsibility? In a totally equal world we'd be worse off. I think point three is why it is held down, divided and controlled.

Why would we be worse off?

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Originally posted by Krypton Didn't know there was a difference. I may not have explained it to your satisfaction, but maybe this wall street journal article will... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123758895999200083.html

Moyo is very bright, and I haven't read her book yet, but it strikes me that she is trying to be provocative on purpose. She's obviously worked at the IMF and with Jeffrey Sachs, so she has an insider's perspective, but she's guilty of treating aid uniformly as well. She highlights cases (mostly from the 80's and 90's) of bad aid allocation that fostered instability, but ignores the entire array of literature that suggests aid projects do a tremendous amount of good (even in terms of sustainability). Furthermore, it seems to me that she goes out of her way to ignore the ways in which development institutions and organizations have changed their structure and objectives in order to increase sustainability in their programs. She has a conclusion in mind, and she cherry-picks the empirical examples to support it.

I'd have to read the book to respond in more detail, but her media campaign of editorials and interviews strikes me as calculated to attract attention for promoting a radical idea. Sachs (her former mentor) has said she goes too far, and I'm inclined to agree.

It doesn't do much good to treat "aid" as a monolithic device - much like it doesn't do much good to talk about the state of "Africa" as a single entity. It seems to me that she is guilty of both.

That said, her book is on my summer reading list, so I may yet amend my judgment on that.

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Originally posted by Domesticated 'Afri-entalism'? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism

Absolutely - I think Said definitely applies to Africa as well. Probably even more so than the Middle East does today.

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What do you think is being done at the moment? Yes, food is handed out, but a large amount of aid funding goes towards education and infrastructure. There's a framed poster on the wall beside me here at work because we sponsored a village in Zimbabwe called 'Kopa'. The poster states that 71 farmers were trained in correct agricultural techniques and provided with the tools and seeds they needed to employ those skills.

God knows Zimbabwe needs just that. What organization do you work for?



To comment on agricultural funding - Oxfam and CARE have monetized food aid in Mozambique and directed it toward providing agricultural and consumer subsidies - that way they can focus on programs designed to increase agricultural output and ensure that there is a market there for it. For a country where the agricultural sector was completely destroyed in the decolonialization process, this is a tremendous success story.

See for instance:
http://www.aec.msu.edu/fs2/mozambiq...sh/flash02e.pdf

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Originally posted by ******** Krypton this may actually be a sound theory if they had enough food for everyone to begin with. Its not like in North America where they dump food due to production limits, or turn corn into gas because it is worth more as a non food staple. Of course the same applies in North America, in that there are people who are starving on the streets but don't get food.

Hey, I'd tell them, welcome to club. There isn't one country in the world that has everything they need. That's why they trade with other countries something they have for something they want/need. If they don't have food, then they can go on the international market and trade for it.