Yeah, dogs can be expensive. My previous dog had a tumor and we paid about 10,000 for a series of operations that probably only extended his life by about a year. But wow did we love that guy.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Amazingly, this is a pretty rational discussion:

Interesting video. Not just because of how they actually manage to debate civilly, but because this whole health care problem is really exotic to me as a foreigner... Universal health care was instituted in Brazil right after it got its democratic ruling back (a couple of decades ago), and it's now considered essential - I fail to understand why anyone would be opposed to that

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Originally posted by Lira Interesting video. Not just because of how they actually manage to debate civilly, but because this whole health care problem is really exotic to me as a foreigner... Universal health care was instituted in Brazil right after it got its democratic ruling back (a couple of decades ago), and it's now considered essential - I fail to understand why anyone would be opposed to that

I still fail to understand it as well. It's actually quite embarrassing that the United States is seriously having this debate.

Discussions about the details of the bill and implementation of reform and the shape it will take are one thing. But to deny that reform is needed or a good thing to aspire to is really shameful.

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There's nothing wrong with stating the truth, Leb...if an entity accepts a large sum of federal money, why would one not expect some kind of mandate, requirement or direction in how it be used? I can understand how a state might prefer autonomy in the way it doles out some of the fiat money.

Also, the video I posted above plainly reveals what a single-payer system brings in terms of rationing, etc (i.e. waiting for even what many would deem emergency procedures to be provided). The Pres already made it clear this was his preference initially and is only backing down due to scrutiny, even from members within his own party. At the aforementioned privately insured animal clinic in Canada, the differences in are made abundantly clear and if commenting on that paints me in some unfavorable light, guilty as charged.

You mention this language from OpenCongress ensuring the private option as know it stays intact but I can't help but be a little skeptical:

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And when you do, scroll down to subsection C, which states that “Individual health insurance coverage that is not grandfathered health insurance coverage under subsection (a) may only be offered on or after the first day of Y1 as an Exchange-participating health benefits plan.” In other words, after the bill becomes law, all new health insurance plans would have to be purchased through the Health Insurance Exchange, which, according to a House committee summary, is a “marketplace for individuals and small employers to comparison shop among private and public insurers.” The provision Investor’s Business Daily latched onto in is, in reality, all about increasing choice and competition in the marketplace between both public and private health insurance options, not limiting choice.

I *may* have jumped the gun on the direct IRS <--> bank account connection but that tax cheat, Rangel, is trying to make it more difficult for the average taxpayer under the guise of one incarnation of the health bill nonetheless:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/nation...x7Iuvsy30uFmFfI

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Originally posted by Lira Interesting video. Not just because of how they actually manage to debate civilly, but because this whole health care problem is really exotic to me as a foreigner... Universal health care was instituted in Brazil right after it got its democratic ruling back (a couple of decades ago), and it's now considered essential - I fail to understand why anyone would be opposed to that

From what I've gathered, the Brazilian model is severely underfunded as well. Quality of care is also pretty bad. So what happens when it can't be afforded anymore, as if it can be even right now? It's absolutely amazing. You can even get plastic surgery and sex change operations under the public system down there.

Last edited by DOOMBOT on Sep-07-2009 at 00:37

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Originally posted by vinnie97 There's nothing wrong with stating the truth, Leb...if an entity accepts a large sum of federal money, why would one not expect some kind of mandate, requirement or direction in how it be used?

What are you basing this on? See, this is my problem. There seems to be an awful lot of assuming going on. Have you read the bill? It seems kind of pointless to make hypothetical statements about what you would expect the bill to say when you could take the hour or two and read through the text.

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Also, the video I posted above plainly reveals what a single-payer system brings in terms of rationing, etc (i.e. waiting for even what many would deem emergency procedures to be provided).

That's great, but I don't watch youtube videos to substitute for argumentation. I know I posted a video in this thread earlier, but I did so fully expecting that nobody would watch it - and I've said over and over that anybody else posting a video in lieu of facts or an argument should expect the same. The primary reason being that nothing is fact-checked or cited in videos - as a result, most videos are full of supposition, exaggeration, and very little fact. The secondary reason being that when I'm at my computer, I'm not muting my music and sitting in a thread for 10 minutes to watch a video that may or may not be coherent. Videos are generally a non-starter in this sub-forum.

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You mention this language from OpenCongress ensuring the private option as know it stays intact but I can't help but be a little skeptical:

Then address your skepticism by reading the portions of the bill cited by the text. It's not like this is classified information.

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I *may* have jumped the gun on the direct IRS <--> bank account connection but that tax cheat, Rangel, is trying to make it more difficult for the average taxpayer under the guise of one incarnation of the health bill nonetheless:

Again, read the text of the bill that is being debated. Spin is full of spin. Not to mention that Rangel is senile and will not be the author of a bill that reaches the floor.

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Originally posted by DOOMBOT From what I've gathered, the Brazilian model is severely underfunded as well. Quality of care is also pretty bad. So what happens when it can't be afforded anymore, as if it can be even right now? It's absolutely amazing. You can even get plastic surgery and sex change operations under the public system down there.

Wait, I don't understand your point - are you saying that it is a good thing that you can get plastic surgeries under the public system? Either way, I should warn you that it only happens in extreme cases (i.e. you were involved in a nasty accident and you need to have your nose reconstructed, or something like that).

As for the quality of care being bad, it depends quite a lot on the region, and it has to do with the economy more than with anything else (keep in mind that we're one of the greatest world economies, but we're still working on social equality). The US being the country it is, that's hardly a problem.

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Originally posted by Shakka You obviously don't have a pet--or have never had a pet require an expensive procedure. I wish I had the foresight to get pet insurance for my dog. It's cheap (like $10/month or something). He had cataracts. One of his eyes is now completely blind and there's nothing we can do about it. We had surgery performed on the other eye and it has cost us a total of about $4,000 out-of-pocket in visits to the specialist, surgery, and medication. It's insane. If he were a cat I would've shot him instead!

Had cats for 11 years. I probably made too strong a statement to say only idiots buy pet insurance, but nonetheless, pet care costs are far exceeded by that of humans, so I fail to recognize the comparison between the two.

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This statement gets tired. You're just one car accident away from death. You're just one electrical socket away from mental retardation. yada yada yada.

All true which is why we try to prevent it right?

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Originally posted by Krypton All true which is why we try to prevent it right?

Yes, but shit happens. It's one thing to have safety nets and social programs that give some supplemental assistance when the chips are down, but it's entirely another to institute obligatory multi-trillion dollar spending programs and mandates in a supposedly "free" country that results in rationing of services.

btw, cataract surgery for a dog runs around $2,500-$3,000 whereas the same surgery for a human only costs about $900 (both out-of-pocket). Crazy, huh?

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Originally posted by Lira Wait, I don't understand your point - are you saying that it is a good thing that you can get plastic surgeries under the public system? Either way, I should warn you that it only happens in extreme cases (i.e. you were involved in a nasty accident and you need to have your nose reconstructed, or something like that). As for the quality of care being bad, it depends quite a lot on the region, and it has to do with the economy more than with anything else (keep in mind that we're one of the greatest world economies, but we're still working on social equality). The US being the country it is, that's hardly a problem.

Side note--I recently read that the current president of Brazil didn't even graduate from elementary school--is that true?

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Originally posted by Shakka Side note--I recently read that the current president of Brazil didn't even graduate from elementary school--is that true?

He did graduate later, but he's not your ordinary president. The guy before him studied at Sorbonne, as was one of our leading sociologists. Lula, on the other hand, was the country's greatest union leader. He still needs to cope with all the stigmatisation and the prejudice regarding his educational background (even though he did study afterwards, as far as I know), but he's done a pretty descent job.

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