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Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty they wont run out of them. there's over 25 million of muslims in Russia and if only .1% or them is radical like these cowardsit would take around 7 years for them to completely dissapear at the rate of 10 suicide bombers a day.

I dont know where you got 25 mil, the highest number I found was 16 million, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

In any case, of those 16 million, most Russian Muslims dont even practice Islam on a regular basis - majority of them are from Tatarstan and Bashkorostan republics near the Volga river. If you combine Chechnya + Ingushetia + Dagestan = 5-6 million Muslims, and even there radicals arent on every street corner. I've followed Russian politics for many years, and I can tell you that suicide attacks is a desperation tactic, Islamists tend to employ them when they're grabbed by the balls. Plus notice where they hit - in Moscow, near FSB headquarters, in very public area, in busy hour. Its a public statement, directed to Russian forces. A cheap, brutal, pathetic attack that was aimed to hit the media and instill fear into the Russian public. They should have not even aired anything on TV, like in Soviet times. Islamists got what they wanted - worldwide generous coverage.

I am more concerned about Russian police brutality in the Caucasus and appaling poverty in the region as well as corruption - more than their Muslim religion. After all, much of the fighting is not due to religious upheaval, but social and economic factors.

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even if by some miracle they do run out of them, there is literally millions of others, ready and willing to take their place. the leader of vehab movement in bosnia jusuf barcic died in a car accident the other day : 3.000 hardcore vehabs attended his funeral while literally 100.000 of them rallied in bosnia, crying for revenge.

Dont compare apples to oranges, my friend. Bosnia is very different. You probably remember that USA and its allies allowed thousands of Jihadists and other fundamentalists from Saudi Arabia and similar countries to join the Bosniak forces to fight against Serbs. Bosniak community has been much more religious since then (as compared before the war).

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for those who dont know what vehab is (nothing on wiki nor pretty much anywhere else. just goes to show you how biased western media and propaganda is) they are bosnian version of jihadists in the world. they go so far that they attack even their own on the street for stuff like.... women not wearing hijab, why mosques arent open 24/7 and so on.

Of course, agreed, I can talk about this with you for hours. Yes, considerable number of Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims) are actually against this religious invasion of their part of Bosnia. They're not used to it, as in Yugoslavia things were much more secular and non-religious. Islam became a rallying call and inspirational factor for them to take up and fight for in 1990s. Most of Bosniaks couldn't even read Arabic before that.

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so to think that they'll run out... aint gonna happen. check this out im not racist or anything like that, if muslims can and want to multiply at this rate, more power to them. BUT if only .001% has their mind set on the holy war.. its game over for all of us. its just a matter of time before somebody gets their cowardly hands on a nuclear weapon and thats pretty much it. jon jon said he feels safe in liberty village. what he failed to understand was that i wasnt talking about chechens per se. even though they dont work in sync, all fundamentalist muslims across the world are working towards the same goal : the world without you and the world without me !! so, how safe are we really are?? how far away are those suicide bombers from my and your house??? "There are signs that Allah will grant victory to Islam in Europe without swords, without guns, without conquest. We don't need terrorists, we don't need homicide bombers. The 50 million Muslims will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades." -muammar abu minyar al-gaddafi

Gaddafi is a lunatic, I dont think that anything he says as even worth listening.

I feel that Islam is threatening our society and way of life, too. There has been significant Muslim population explosion in recent years in Europe, from couple million in 1960s to 40 million of today. Sooner or later it may erupt into a conflict - but thats a different topic for a different thread on a different day.

But dont underestimate the Russians or the Serbs. They stood up to Islam before, and will withstand in the future. Especially the Russians, they've been underestimated many times in the past. Every other European country is only too busy accomodating Sharia law, Halal meats, separate rooms for Muslims, and so on. Democracy has its flaws, I suppose

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Dont compare apples to oranges, my friend. Bosnia is very different

USED to be different. i still have family down there and the stories they tell me....it makes my hairs on the back of my head raise. even though it was a well known fact that bosnia, some parts of kosovo and albania had al quaida training camp (even back then) nobody did anything about it. even worse they helped them constantly, smuggling guns and ammo in UNICEF planes, giving 4.000 terrorists bosnian citizenship, wiping overnight pure Serbian villages..... i could go on for days and its still gonna fall on deaf ears because some twat will quote wiki(not talking about you buddy), bbc or cnn. everybody turned their backs on us, even our oldest and dearest Russian allies and brothers.

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But dont underestimate the Russians or the Serbs. They stood up to Islam before, and will withstand in the future.

far from underestimating us. but look what happened to my people, for centuries we were the first AND last line of defense against ottoman empire and all its reincarnations. and now.... "Serbian demons", "Serbian killers"..... you know something is shifty when you're a bad guy in a holywood movie lol. everybody knows about srebrenica but nobody ever wants to ask "why did it happen", nobody (wants to) know(s) about 128 Serbian villages around srebrenica and 3.000 women, children and old people, slaughtered to the point where "blue helmets" were running away, deserting their UN posts.

im not rambling, im trying to make a point here:

im not underestimating Russian power but you should not underestimate the power of western media and propaganda. nobody, and i mean nobody can win if EVERYBODY is against you !!!

Russia should put a stop on these attacks as soon as possible, by any means neccesary and once its all said and done, just THEN worry about "how will they look" or something along those lines !!!

im pretty sure none of us would be able to kill a 17 years old girl, no matter what. well, she has no problem detonating herself and killing loads of people around. how do you fight that fanaticism???

oh and one more thing, its not a fight about social and economic factors nor is it a religious war anymore. its our way of life vs theirs and its more than obvious they wont stop until :1. they win or 2. they lose (when i say they i dont mean muslim population, im talking about that small % of them who's willing to kill his own to win).

good to know not everybody was buying into all that bullshit propaganda. the fact is we will all have to unite at one point or another to protect our way of life, simple as that.

cheers !!!

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i wanna wipe my ass with mona lisa !!!

Don't worry man, Russian people didn't give up on you guys, it was our drunk president at a time, EBN, who one morning woke up and realized he upset his CIA comrads. FIASCO IN PRISTINA : RUSSIAN TROOPS ENTER KOSOVO; Nato left standing as Serbs cheer the arrival of Russians.

Great thread. I'm really enjoying the debate between Xavier and Magnetonium.. some very interesting points of views and facts.

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Originally posted by Xavier Moriarty USED to be different. i still have family down there and the stories they tell me....it makes my hairs on the back of my head raise.

You see, thats part of the problem. The main reason why Serbia got obliterated since 1991 is because of fierce nationalism. Its utterly self-destructive when you dont consider political and military power, alliances, money, support, planning. Serbs thought they could take on Croats, Bosniaks, NATO, USA, Europe (pretty much everyone) and win. Not possible. If Serbs thought about it, make some treaties and swaps, used more diplomacy - they could have gotten much more out of all this. Thats why I dont support fierce nationalist groups - they most often lead to national self-destruction or damage. Serbs got punished big time for being too proud and after they hurt NATO and Europe. Srebenica was also a factor. Thats why Kosovo was cut out of Serbia, if Serbs let things go or took compromise earlier, it might have not gone so bad.

I feel it for the Serbs, they got raw deal, got humiliated, beaten, punished, whatever. Kosovo was too much. But then they committed way too many mistakes and crimes, and pissed many people off. Russians are not like the Russians of the pre-1990 days, you cant expect them to stand up for you, not when they have serious mess in their own backyard. And besides, Serbs fucked Russia over in World War I. They went to fight for Serbia (remember assasination of the duke?), and back home revolution took over.

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but look what happened to my people, for centuries we were the first AND last line of defense against ottoman empire and all its reincarnations. and now.... "Serbian demons", "Serbian killers"..... you know something is shifty when you're a bad guy in a holywood movie lol.

Nowadays the trend is for Western nations to appeal to Muslim nations. Hence the favourable immigration policies, the appeasement, the friendly and quiet politics. No longer is Gaddafi being criticized for violating his peoples rights (wow, thats quite a change from 1980s, when he was viciously attacked). I think one of the big reasons for this is oil, gas, money, economy, profits. Fuck democracy and human rights, right?

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everybody knows about srebrenica but nobody ever wants to ask "why did it happen", nobody (wants to) know(s) about 128 Serbian villages around srebrenica and 3.000 women, children and old people, slaughtered to the point where "blue helmets" were running away, deserting their UN posts.

There is no excuse for Srebenica, there never will be. It was a very bad moment for Serbian people, a political victory for Bosniaks, and it should not have happened. There was no good reason for it to happen. Serbs looked like the Nazis of World War II - it is a very embarassing moments for Serbian people. The reason why it happened is the same reason why Serbs got punished big time since 1991. Although I do admire the courage of Serbian parliament recently to pass a resolution condemning the massacre (or genocide?), although Serbian state was technically not directly responsible for that despicable crime.

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im not rambling, im trying to make a point here: im not underestimating Russian power but you should not underestimate the power of western media and propaganda. nobody, and i mean nobody can win if EVERYBODY is against you !!!

Politics, politics, politics. Nationalism, nationalism, nationalism. As described in my earlier part of the post.

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Russia should put a stop on these attacks as soon as possible, by any means neccesary and once its all said and done, just THEN worry about "how will they look" or something along those lines !!! im pretty sure none of us would be able to kill a 17 years old girl, no matter what. well, she has no problem detonating herself and killing loads of people around. how do you fight that fanaticism??? oh and one more thing, its not a fight about social and economic factors nor is it a religious war anymore. its our way of life vs theirs and its more than obvious they wont stop until :1. they win or 2. they lose (when i say they i dont mean muslim population, im talking about that small % of them who's willing to kill his own to win). good to know not everybody was buying into all that bullshit propaganda. the fact is we will all have to unite at one point or another to protect our way of life, simple as that. cheers !!!

Russia doesn't have the power, the influence, the money or the interest to even think about it. EU nations will have a good laugh if Russia does say something about it. Unfortunately, Russia has many other more pressing issues, some of which are threatening its very own survival and future.

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Originally posted by exraver Don't worry man, Russian people didn't give up on you guys, it was our drunk president at a time, EBN, who one morning woke up and realized he upset his CIA comrads. FIASCO IN PRISTINA : RUSSIAN TROOPS ENTER KOSOVO; Nato left standing as Serbs cheer the arrival of Russians.

Oh, Yevkurov was the Russian general who amazed the world and scared the shit out of NATO for doing this stunt! They didn't see it coming at all! It was a brilliant military move, which most importantly secured Russia's strong position and involvement in Kosovo.

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Originally posted by jad Great thread. I'm really enjoying the debate between Xavier and Magnetonium.. some very interesting points of views and facts.

Thanks! Politics is my forte. Dont take offense to my criticism of Islam. I dont hate Islam as a religion, I respect it. I have a lot of beef against Islam as a force against our societies and culture, and certain Islamic forces and groups I am against, thats all.

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Its funny that our Western society is split when it comes to defending our system or allies when it comes to West-Islam issues, while Muslims are nearly unanimous in support AGAINST us, the West. How many Muslims do you hear criticizing their compatriots? Thats what worries me, that as a force they have the power to break us. Thats why we need to get off our oil addiction. Big time.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Last edited by Magnetonium on Apr-07-2010 at 16:22