quote:

Originally posted by Michael Russo Anyways, think of it this way. You die, and God exists. Did you live your life, developing a relationship with Him? No... so what distinguishes you from an atheist? Nothing. If you choose to think about it, it's one thing, but if you choose not to choose, in reality, you are choosing no whether you'll admit it to me or not.

Ok, I understand what you're saying, and it's true that if God does exist, I have done nothing more than an atheist to develop a relationship with Him.

I chose to think about it a long time ago. The conclusion I came to was that the evidence of God's existence was insufficient to justify modifying my behavior patterns in order to comply with the code of conduct He supposedly wants me to follow. I could constantly be reevaluating this conclusion, but that would serve no purpose. Since there is no new relevant evidence, I would follow the same reasoning process and come up with the same result.

The only remotely compelling reason I can see to believe in God is a fear of punishment. But I'm not a coward. If the things I'm doing are wrong, then it is not I who have failed: given finite information and a finite intellect, I came to the most logical conclusion. Instead, it is He, for He has not provided me with sufficient information to rationally justify belief in him. If He would punish me for coming to the most reasonable conclusion, then I don't see Him as being deserving of worship anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter The only remotely compelling reason I can see to believe in God is a fear of punishment. But I'm not a coward. If the things I'm doing are wrong, then it is not I who have failed: given finite information and a finite intellect, I came to the most logical conclusion. Instead, it is He, for He has not provided me with sufficient information to rationally justify belief in him. If He would punish me for coming to the most reasonable conclusion, then I don't see Him as being deserving of worship anyway.

This is what I believe too. Fear of the unknown is very natural. I think people were terrified about what happened when people die, for example, so they invented a thing called heaven (or nirvana or whatever you want to call it) to make the whole existence thing a bit easier to deal with. And what better way to make people do what you want (and keep them under check) than make rules about getting to this place. Of course, I don't really know that much about religion, but i think in a few thousand years people will tell stories about a magical kind of music called trance, that gave ppl the ability to fly, took them to another world.....

GOD BLESS ATHEISTS!!!!!

Omfg. the logic, and the brain tell me there is not god.
do you think god prefer catholic or jews or muslims?
all of the above believe in the same god.
all of them think they worship him in the right way.
you ask me how i can "guarantee" that he doesnt care about you?
again if there is god.
i can , cause there are above 6,000,000,000 people in this world.
every one of them can live is life in his own way, they can be criminals, they can god lover's or even donate 1,000,000 dolar's every year to charity.
so what?
the criminal can live beautiful lives, have sex with beatiful babes,
have money to spend for his intire life..
good lives.
the god lover can live poor lives. he could suffer from cancer and die in a hard way...
even the one who donate 100,000,000 every year!
his family can make him a hard life.
he can also die in many differnet way's.
so you can tell me he will have a good life in the next world, bullshit.
how you can guarantee there is a next world!
nothing in the world can repire the feeling of losing someone you love!!
what would you do in heaven ?
have a large dick and fuck babes all day?
get real...
6,000,000,000 people in this world!
and you tell me god care about each one of them...
there is nothing more stupid then to think this way.
even if there is god, like i said, he fucking dont care what you do..
and more than that. he died long time ago , after jesus died(speicially for you cause i guess you'r cristian)
cause since than , no one had spoken to god. and told us his words of wisdom, and what we should do in this world...
(ok maybe after mohamad died but what's the differnce)
and another thing, about the compassion bullshit, what did i say?
holocaust?
i think i did.
after that, i realy dont think that god has such a compassion.
look what he done to his "Chosen ones"(yeah right)
go to the next road in your way, and wait for a car to come!!!
dont run untill it hits you, let's see the "compassion" of god.

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Last edited by nesher on Oct-09-2002 at 13:31

another thing i want to ask..
why do you think less people today believe in god then in the past.
when everyone in the world believed in god's!!
because of the science....
science is what make our life more easy, more fun, worth something.
the far the brain work, the less "god" has influence on him.
all agree the scientist have more brain then a normal human,
in order to be a scientist from any kind, you should have a certain quntity of i.q., and will.
most of the scientist doesnt believe in god.
cause they'r smart..
sometimes few of them get crazy because they brain can handle to much information, like a normal human, and they convert into to god believers.
the ancient human used to think there are god's that he should worship, cause he was afarid of the thing he didn't know.
like why there is night and day, or moon , or rain , or fire, or all the other things that today seem so stupid if someone won't know it.
i believe no one can have learn everything. but most people who know a lot..
dont believe in the stupid unproven fiction being, we call god.
look , we even invented a name for it, how do you know "god" is called "god" and not "eloim" or "allah" .
maybe he likes to call himself, mishkatongishungi.
fuck it.
how stupid can you be.
think hard..
above what your parnet's tald you , cause you know parent's doesnt allways right. they'r humans too.
try thinking, why do i believe in god?
why is that ****** can't tell me . im exist, worship me bitch and get it all over.
i don't know how the world created, but i know that there is no personal god that keep everyone in safe, and want everyone to worship him , this is man invention!

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Nesher:
First of all, you should not 'test' God, by jumping for a car and see what happens...then you die.

When you look just at the human body, you simply Can't ignore that that HAS to be MADE by a very sepcial force (i.e. God) for a purpose and not that we all are just a 'coincedance' that suddenly emerges out of evolution... And when you look @ the nature, with all his different kinds of animals, that keep each other 'in stand'.

"The truth, often is hard to find"
"The truth, sometimes it leaves you blind"
"The truth, it brings you to the light"
"The truth, showing you wrong from right"

Think about that....

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Even if you can not hear my voice, I'll be right beside you dear

Nesher, you're a very confused individual... you obviously don't know what you're talking about. The arguments you bring up SUCK, but people like you buy them... You know why, because you're "dumb". Not the people who believe in God... because religious people have historically been the smartest people. That Einstein guy... how dumb was he?

I don't have time to type up a long response, but everything you say is clearly addressed in all of the three faiths you brought up. Go talk to someone that knows!!!! I don't see how making up your own idea of a faith and then using it to criticize other faiths gets you anywhere.

The whole point of life is that you can do whatever you want. If this wasn't the case, then religion would not exist. Think about it... for your sake I hope you can understand why. You obviously don't, and I'm sorry to say this, but the problem is with your "brain" and your "logic".

You can do whatever you want... the reward comes at the end of your human life. The evil people may be living the more glamourous lives... and if that's what you want, go for it. But it's not the right thing to do! The point of living is to sort out these issues.

And your science argument... obviously you've never studied science at an involved level. By doing so you truly realize the absolute beauty of the world... the care and attention that went into making it. If you don't believe in God, you believe that all this was made randomly. And that is just plain ridiculous... absolutely ridiculous. Look at quantum mechanics... the quantum mechanical model of the atom. How can anyone in their right mind say that this came to be from particles flying randomly together? Because if you don't believe in God, that's what you believe. Ridiculous...

I won't try to convince other people that I'm right. But I think everyone got the hole religion thing wrong. It was actually best said in the movie dogma. I forget the exact line, but essentially they said that all the branches were wrong, it's all to superficial and the real important stuff got lost. God doesnt care if you think the garden of eden was in salt lake city, nor does he care if you believe in the pope and not some other random guy. All he cares about is that you live your life morally and arn't a total fucktard. I mean seriouslly if everyone was worshiping you, would you really give a rats ass if they called themselves muslims or jews? No religious group is chosen, we are all chosen, and given the gift of life.

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Originally posted by Nadi I won't try to convince other people that I'm right. But I think everyone got the hole religion thing wrong. It was actually best said in the movie dogma. I forget the exact line, but essentially they said that all the branches were wrong, it's all to superficial and the real important stuff got lost. God doesnt care if you think the garden of eden was in salt lake city, nor does he care if you believe in the pope and not some other random guy. All he cares about is that you live your life morally and arn't a total fucktard. I mean seriouslly if everyone was worshiping you, would you really give a rats ass if they called themselves muslims or jews? No religious group is chosen, we are all chosen, and given the gift of life.

how do you know?

interesting thread

this i loved the most:

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Originally posted by Arbiter Ok, I understand what you're saying, and it's true that if God does exist, I have done nothing more than an atheist to develop a relationship with Him. I chose to think about it a long time ago. The conclusion I came to was that the evidence of God's existence was insufficient to justify modifying my behavior patterns in order to comply with the code of conduct He supposedly wants me to follow. I could constantly be reevaluating this conclusion, but that would serve no purpose. Since there is no new relevant evidence, I would follow the same reasoning process and come up with the same result. The only remotely compelling reason I can see to believe in God is a fear of punishment. But I'm not a coward. If the things I'm doing are wrong, then it is not I who have failed: given finite information and a finite intellect, I came to the most logical conclusion. Instead, it is He, for He has not provided me with sufficient information to rationally justify belief in him. If He would punish me for coming to the most reasonable conclusion, then I don't see Him as being deserving of worship anyway.

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

nesher - quit being so bitter and quit rambling. you are making absolutely no sense.

Michael - an athiest/agnostic does not deny the possibility of the existance of divine beings, just the idea that humans know what these divine beings are like, and hence can have a relationship with them. All of the thousands of religions in the history of the earth were created by man, therefore, it is logical to assume that us humans have no friggin clue of the divine beings. Thats what they are 'divine', out of our reach.

quote:

When you look just at the human body, you simply Can't ignore that that HAS to be MADE by a very sepcial force (i.e. God) for a purpose and not that we all are just a 'coincedance' that suddenly emerges out of evolution... And when you look @ the nature, with all his different kinds of animals, that keep each other 'in stand'.

The point is, we dont know what that force or forces are, therefore religion is meaningless.

Just my oppinion. this topic has gone way off topic, but who cares!

Also, you guys should respect Michael Russo, hes a smart dude.

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The father made fetuses with flesh licking ladies / While you and your mother were asleep in the trailer park / Thunderous sparks from the dark of the stadiums / The music and medicine you needed for comforting / So make all your fat, fleshy fingers fingers to moving / And pluck all your silly strings and / Bend all your notes for me and / Soft silly music is meaningful, magical / The movements were beautiful / All in your ovaries / All of them milking with green fleshy flowers / While powerful pistons were sugary sweet machines, / Smelling of semen all under the garden / Was all you were needing when you still believed in me.

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Originally posted by Dmatrox The universe is not infinte?! Who are you, god? You state that the universe is infinite like its a fact of truth. Its like when people say god is alive or there is a god. What you stated above is subjective. Let me say one thing. Religion and philosophy and beleif may hold 'true' for a civilization, but it does not hold true for eternity. Science holds true because of scientific observation and repeatable events. What im saying is, religion and philosophy are never conclusion from one civilization to the next; however, mathematics and science live forever because it is truth. When i say science, i dont mean all theories.

The universe isn't infinite. The space which contains all the stars, planets, atoms, etc. in the universe is currentely expanding as can be seen by the Red Shifting of all the galaxies around us and the Hubble Constant. Therefore the farther back in time we go the denser and smaller the universe up until a single singularity. Therefore our universe has a definite age and a beginning. As to what existed before ... nobody knows.

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Originally posted by Michael Russo And your science argument... obviously you've never studied science at an involved level. By doing so you truly realize the absolute beauty of the world... the care and attention that went into making it. If you don't believe in God, you believe that all this was made randomly. And that is just plain ridiculous... absolutely ridiculous. Look at quantum mechanics... the quantum mechanical model of the atom. How can anyone in their right mind say that this came to be from particles flying randomly together? Because if you don't believe in God, that's what you believe. Ridiculous...

In the same regard you can't discount the fact that there is a possibility that all of this was constructed by sheer chance. Keep in mind that over 15 billion years a LOT can happen due to sheer randomness. Maybe one of the reasons why everything around us is so perfect, intricate, and beautiful in complexity is because everything that wasn't has died out over the course of billions of years. That through natural selection, everything around us has managed to survive through adaptation and propogation. When you think about it our planet is littered with the fossil mistakes in life. The things that weren't nearly as perfect as what has survived. I do believe in God ... a higher being of some kind ... but I think people tend to attribute many things around us as "God's work" due to ignorance and a lack of understanding. The fact is ... science has explained or will explain the origins of everything around us up until the very beginning of the universe. The only thing that I would possibly concede as God's work is the initial creation of the universe.