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Originally posted by Trance-M There already were some problems with North-Africans in Collogne, but this suddenly exploded. I think no-one expected or imagined something like this could happen. They say it was organized. There's a lot to investigate I guess.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...age-victim.html

They were identified as not speaking native German and 'Arab and North African-looking' men.

Now ask yourself this. Has Germany recently accepted thousands of North African refugee men? Do you think the witnesses knew the difference on sight? Do you think it makes a difference where they were from if they were recent refugees from gender segregated cultures?

I think one of the worst things about the attacks on cologne is that apparently out of the 33 suspects they have either identified or arrested, 18 of them have been confirmed as Asylum seekers.

While most European countries have a lot of a colonial guilt which is part of the basis for an overly politically correct climate, we'll probably see a shift towards a little more discretion on migration in to these countries.

To be fair though, 18 offenders out of 1.5 million asylum seekers last year alone is probably the usual amount of rotten apples you'd find in any extremely large group.

If this happened every day for a year (quite an exaggeration as crime rates haven't gone up), this means 4% of all asylum seekers would go on to commit a crime. Hardly a reason to vilify the other 96% as some people now do.

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What I don't understand is how one can be a peace-loving, devout Muslim and follow Islam - the Quran. The latter is a violent, extremist ideology still being practiced today. Islam and peace seem rather contradictory.

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Originally posted by Lira To be fair though, 18 offenders out of 1.5 million asylum seekers last year alone is probably the usual amount of rotten apples you'd find in any extremely large group. If this happened every day for a year (quite an exaggeration as crime rates haven't gone up), this means 4% of all asylum seekers would go on to commit a crime. Hardly a reason to vilify the other 96% as some people now do.

That's not quite the right way to look at the statistic though; There were now 500 confirmed attacks and the police have only identified 33 suspects so far.

The shocking part os that out of the 33 they have been able to identify (and they have dozens more to identify) more than half of those were asylum seekers. It's not really about how many immigrants in a given country are rapists, but out of a small group suspects, the majority are asylum seekers.

It's daily mail fodder for sure but it's slightly worrying that even a single person that has been give safeheaven in a welcoming country would do that.

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred What I don't understand is how one can be a peace-loving, devout Muslim and follow Islam - the Quran. The latter is a violent, extremist ideology still being practiced today. Islam and peace seem rather contradictory.

The same could be said about the Bible, the Torah, 50 Shades of Grey... Yet it doesn't mean readers of these books go berserk killing people left, right and centre. Context, for one thing, matters quite a lot.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN That's not quite the right way to look at the statistic though; There were now 500 confirmed attacks and the police have only identified 33 suspects so far.

Actually, you're not disagreeing with me: There were 500 attacks, which is not to say there were 500 attackers (unless all attackers struck only once). So the numbers I posted are still valid and what you said is also correct

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Originally posted by DJ RANN It's daily mail fodder for sure but it's slightly worrying that even a single person that has been give safeheaven in a welcoming country would do that.

And I agree with you about it. I really can't grasp how someone can do it to a people that welcome him or her with open arms. But, there are twats. The larger the group, the more likely it is to have at least one among them

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quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred What I don't understand is how one can be a peace-loving, devout Muslim and follow Islam - the Quran. The latter is a violent, extremist ideology still being practiced today. Islam and peace seem rather contradictory.

Please stop. The old testament is just as, if not more violent.

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Originally posted by DJ RANN Please stop. The old testament is just as, if not more violent.

That's not an argument, because the violence in Islam - the Quran - is being implemented to this very day. The violence in the Bible and the Torah are not.

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Originally posted by Lira The same could be said about the Bible, the Torah, 50 Shades of Grey... Yet it doesn't mean readers of these books go berserk killing people left, right and centre. Context, for one thing, matters quite a lot.

Exactly, but you do see radical Muslims go berserk killing people left and right all in the name of Allah/Islam.

Last edited by AlphaStarred on Jan-11-2016 at 04:25

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred Exactly, but you do see radical Muslims go berserk killing people left and right all in the name of Allah/Islam.

Just as we've seen radical Christians and ultra-orthodox Jews do the very same thing. Even nationalist Buddhists in Burma/Myanmar are known to lash out at "non-Burmese" outsiders... And the Buddha pretty much just talked about nirvana and chill!

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Sure, but it's still not an argument against my original point. How can you reconcile Islam with peace if it commands the slaying and/or subjugation of all non-believers?

The only thing worse than a jew is an ignorant jew.

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred Sure, but it's still not an argument against my original point. How can you reconcile Islam with peace if it commands the slaying and/or subjugation of all non-believers?

The same way followers of other religions ignore similar cals to violence: They read it within a theological framework that explains the context (reason muftis and Muslim clerics alike have told jihadi nutters to cut it out). Muslims themselves can't even agree among themselves on what Islam should be (Sunnis and Shias disagree on quite a lot), so it's hard to say "you can't do X with Islam" as if it were just one thing. Even if you take the Quran, you don't just read a religious text and take it literally because "hey, it's written here!". Or rather, you shouldn't...

Literalism (Islamic or otherwise) is quite recent, having spread from Christian fundamentalism to other Abrahamic religions, possible only because after the Protestant reformation the Bible (rather than the Church) was taken to be an all-knowing arbiter and source of religious truth.

So, no, Islam doesn't command the slaying of all non-believers (if you don't believe me, you can check its five pillars for yourself and see there's no bit that says "Kill off all heretics!" ), otherwise you'd see a 1.5 billion Muslims waging total war against infidels. Phew!

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