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Yea except the Germans got the Ruhr back in the mid-20s in exchange for a demilitarization of the Rhineland ... which they subsequentely violated in 1936. Essentially by the mid 30's the Germans were ignoring all the provisions of the Treaty of Versailles anyway ... so they didn't go to war to escape the treaty at all.

That is true. But that was after Hitler was elected as chancellor. Those actions commited by France were the reasons that allowed NSDAP to get in power. What Hitler did later was mostly not justified, but I was more thinking of the reasons that got him in power in the first place. Besides, if he weren't elected, Germany would probably be paying its debts to these days.

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1+1=10

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 That is true. But that was after Hitler was elected as chancellor. Those actions commited by France were the reasons that allowed NSDAP to get in power. What Hitler did later was mostly not justified, but I was more thinking of the reasons that got him in power in the first place. Besides, if he weren't elected, Germany would probably be paying its debts to these days.

Hitler became chancellor in 1933 which stemmed from the complete collapse of the German economy in early 1930s. The French occupation of the Ruhr was brief (and partly justifiable in my opinion) and I don't think you can say it had a causal effect on Hitler coming into power 8 years after the event. Anyway you could argue that if it had such a huge impact then why wasn't there a change of leadership immediately following the event? I don't think anythign hitler did can be justified with the exception of turning around the German economy. I agree that Versailles was a mistake but if the Germans didn't like the war debts, they shouldn't have invaded France in the first place. Like that saying goes ... if you can't afford the time don't do the crime.

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Originally posted by Arbiter Furthermore, a preponderance of individuals, many of whom normally seem to be rational and intelligent people, have the audacity to compare Palestinian terrorism to Israeli military activity against the Palestinians as equal evils. This is so preposterous, so utterly ludicrous, that it makes me want to reclassify myself as a different species to dissociate myself from anyone or anything that could possibly have conceived this notion. Let me draw this out in crayon for anyone who may not follow: the sole and exclusive cause of Israeli military exercises against the Palestinians is the terrorism of the Palestinians. That is to say, Israel's military activity against Palestinians is one of the negative effects of Palestinian terrorism. It is the Palestinians themselves whose actions are producing this result. Do I think Israeli military actions which result in the death of Palestinian civilians are a good thing? No, of course not. But Israel is under constant attack. What do you expect them to do, respond with charity? If someone came up to you on the street, and started punching you in the face, would you give them your wallet, or would you fight back? If you give them your wallet, you become part of the problem by providing positive feedback to their undesirable activity. A reasonable person my not particuarly want to hurt the person who is assaulting him, but presented by such a situation, he really has no choice. So I ask you, sir, what planet are you from? Because it appears to me it is one where good and evil have undergone some form of juxtaposition. You compare Sharon to Hitler, but last time I checked, there weren't many Jews strapping bombs to their backs in early 20th century Germany. You cry about the horrible fate of the Palestinians, but yet you can't be bothered to give a second thought to the horrible precedent that is already being set by negotiating with terrorists. Don't you see how many people will die in the future because of your legitimization of terrorism as a means for obtaining political redress? Where is your sympathy for them and their loved ones? If the Palestinians want justice, I don't have a problem with it. But they have to choose a different way to express their frustrations than terrorism first. If you want to be treated in a civil manner, you ought to behave in such a manner yourself. Otherwise, you're nothing more than a hypocrite. Regards, Arbiter

Amen, well thought out, couldn't have said it better myself. People who compare Sharon to Hitler, ug, cant stand them. Modern Israel is a completely different situation than Hitler's Germany, or Yugoslavia under Milosevich, the political situation there is more complex than just about every other country in the world.

Some of the terrorist groups dont want peace at all, they want the status quo, last I checked Hamas's goal is the destruction of Israel. There's no dealing with people like that, the occupation of Palastine maybe the only way Israel has to deal with terrorist organizations such as Hamas. And I'll also remind those not familiar with history that Israeli's are not conquerers, they conquered land only after they were invaded. And Lebanon was occupied due to terrorists making that as a base of operations to attack Israel.

Trying Ariel Sharon for war crimes will look silly & hypocritical if Yassir Arafat isn't standing next to him being tried for war crimes as well. Arafat has done his deeds as well, and I'm old enough to remember the PLO terrorist organization, and the brutal crimes against humanity, the PLO under Arafat used to carry out.

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DNA, kick me up
Protoculture, Circadians

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Amen, well thought out, couldn't have said it better myself. People who compare Sharon to Hitler, ug, cant stand them. Modern Israel is a completely different situation than Hitler's Germany, or Yugoslavia under Milosevich, the political situation there is more complex than just about every other country in the world. Some of the terrorist groups dont want peace at all, they want the status quo, last I checked Hamas's goal is the destruction of Israel. There's no dealing with people like that, the occupation of Palastine maybe the only way Israel has to deal with terrorist organizations such as Hamas. And I'll also remind those not familiar with history that Israeli's are not conquerers, they conquered land only after they were invaded. And Lebanon was occupied due to terrorists making that as a base of operations to attack Israel. Trying Ariel Sharon for war crimes will look silly & hypocritical if Yassir Arafat isn't standing next to him being tried for war crimes as well. Arafat has done his deeds as well, and I'm old enough to remember the PLO terrorist organization, and the brutal crimes against humanity, the PLO under Arafat used to carry out.

Look's like someone knows his stuff!

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Signature Suspended as it was deemed offensive.

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Originally posted by occrider Hitler became chancellor in 1933 which stemmed from the complete collapse of the German economy in early 1930s. The French occupation of the Ruhr was brief (and partly justifiable in my opinion) and I don't think you can say it had a causal effect on Hitler coming into power 8 years after the event. Anyway you could argue that if it had such a huge impact then why wasn't there a change of leadership immediately following the event? I don't think anythign hitler did can be justified with the exception of turning around the German economy. I agree that Versailles was a mistake but if the Germans didn't like the war debts, they shouldn't have invaded France in the first place. Like that saying goes ... if you can't afford the time don't do the crime.

WWI caused WWII, if the Germans weren't financially punished so much, the National Socialist party probably would never came to power. Anybody got any info on National Socialist policies... I mean apart from genocide & racial supremacy. Stuff like typical social & economic policy. I want to understand fascism better, so I know when to approipriately use the term.

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Current fav albums

DNA, kick me up
Protoculture, Circadians

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Originally posted by melech_mike Look's like someone knows his stuff!

Actually I be the first to admit, I dont know everything about Israel, it's a uniquely complex political situation that's been rumbling for decades. It dates way back to 1948 when Great Britain gave up colonial control over lots of territories, including Israel. It's a terribly messy situation, and I dont have an answer for it.

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Current fav albums

DNA, kick me up
Protoculture, Circadians

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Anybody got any info on National Socialist policies... I mean apart from genocide & racial supremacy. Stuff like typical social & economic policy.

Genocide and racial supremacy pretty much was their policy.

"National Socialism is the will of the Fuhrer. Full Stop" - Martin Bormann(Hitlers secretary)

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Originally posted by Verona^My Trying Ariel Sharon for war crimes will look silly & hypocritical if Yassir Arafat isn't standing next to him being tried for war crimes as well. Arafat has done his deeds as well, and I'm old enough to remember the PLO terrorist organization, and the brutal crimes against humanity, the PLO under Arafat used to carry out.

true. maybe the should both be tried?

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NFA

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DROP PILLS NOT BOMBS

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Originally posted by Verona^My WWI caused WWII, if the Germans weren't financially punished so much, the National Socialist party probably would never came to power. Anybody got any info on National Socialist policies... I mean apart from genocide & racial supremacy. Stuff like typical social & economic policy. I want to understand fascism better, so I know when to approipriately use the term.

Yes the treaty of Versailles was the underlying reason for the NSDAPs rise to power. That and the fact that many Germans felt betrayed by their leaders for the surrender. I guess that's why the allies pushed so much for unconditional surrender in WW2. That must have been an eye opener for the Germans to have the war brought to their own country. I doubt there were very many feelings of betrayal after that. Anyway I have a bunch of great history books that deal with 1918-1939 Germany. I'll see if I can find those titles for you.

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Originally posted by DaveSaenz That is such bullshit about being a "free society!" Like I said above...if I were a Muslim I would be treated as a second class citizen.

i know many muslims in israel who would take offense to that statement. i have personally talked to and befriended muslims in israel that thank god every day for the opprotunity and life they have in israel. discrimination is illegal in israel. im not saying it does not exsist, no place is perfect, you're from the US, you should know.

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

I know of many muslims myself who think the same way. They may consider that what the US is doing is wrong but they still consider themeselves free to express their opinions and believe that they are "free." It's most certainly a lot better than any other country in the middle east. I dare you to name one other country that has more of a concern or expression of civil liberties in the middle east than ours.