quote:

Originally posted by occrider Certainly not to account for the other 471,000 refugees. I'm a firm believer that many simply evacuated to clear the way for an Arab invasion. But you can't discount that the spread of word of mouth about the incident served to frighten and confirm the premature beliefs of the existing population that they needed to escape to save their lives.

i agree with what you said. for me, any news about war in general would be enough to make me leave my home in search of safety.


TheDemon: why are you here? have you got anything other then insults to add to this place?

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quote:

Originally posted by rupert The things that you people say about what happened to the Arabs. This is DISGRACEFUL. You people have nothing to be fucking proud about. And to you Melech Mike and your wonderful IDF that you are so proud of .... READ. "Near a south Lebanese village occupied by Israeli troops, Lieutenant Daniel Pinto, the acting commander of an Israeli infantry company, strangled four Lebanese peasants whose bodies, tied hand and foot, wre later found in a well. Another Israeli officer, Lieutenant-Colonel Arye Sadeh, ordered the execution of one of his battalions prisoners during the first days of the advance into Lebanon. Pinto was court-martialled for his atrocity but the Israeli chief of staff, General Rafael Eitan, reduced the sentence to two years and then ordered Pintos release. Sadeh received two and a half years imprisonment and reduction in rank to major, a sentence that was later raised by an appeals court to five years and reduction to private. Eitan restored the original sentence. His specific orders to the Israeli army in 'Operation Litani' were 'to annihilate the terrorists and their infrastructure". From page 132 of Pity the Nation by Robert Fisk. A book which anyone who wants to know about the middle east would find edifying reading. The author has been witness to a lot of atrocities of which Israel has committed MORE than its fair share.

im glad that the two military officials you mentioned were court martialed and recieved some sort of discplinary action, although it may not have been a severe enough punishment at least there was one and those who committed such acts were held accountable. To bad i cant say that about the Palestinians, Lebonese or Syrians. I wont say that israel or the IDF is perfect but comparing them to the groups they're fighting agianst they are definitly at higher ground, and thus deserve more support.

the fact that they were punished proves my point even more, that it is not the norm, intention or behaviour of Israel and the IDF to operate in a barbaric manner, that of massacres, slaughters murders and further disgraces

quote:

In 1948-1949 the Jews deliberately decided to ethnically cleanse the Arabs. NO IFS NO BUTS NO FUCKING MAYBES.

The Jews DID NOT deliberately decide to ethnically cleanse the Arabs. was what i quoted from israel's proclomation of independence a straight up fat lie?
no time to elaborate further, class starts in 30 mins and im still at home

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Last edited by Izzy on Mar-25-2003 at 17:06

quote:

Originally posted by melech_mike Lastly, and definitely most importantly, you came to compare me to an Arab suicide bomber... words can't even express what would happen to you if you ever gathered the balls to say this to my face. That was the most ignorant, rude, inappropriate comment ever made upon me. I can't explain to you how mindless that was!

Yet that was exactly what you said to me when you first found out I'm a leftist ... Hopefully your oppinions have changed since?

quote:

Originally posted by rupert In 1948-1949 the Jews deliberately decided to ethnically cleanse the Arabs. NO IFS NO BUTS NO FUCKING MAYBES.

Well, in 48-49, 67, 73, and yet in avrious other historic opportunities, the Muslims and otehr nice folks tried to ethnically cleanse the Jews didn't they? Add your but's, maybe's and if's below please.

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quote:

Originally posted by oDrori Yet that was exactly what you said to me when you first found out I'm a leftist ... Hopefully your oppinions have changed since?

Could you ever forgive me.
Although i'm still very disturbed by your dicision of taking the leftist stance. The leftist stance is what get's us killed!

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quote:

Originally posted by melech_mike Could you ever forgive me. Although i'm still very disturbed by your dicision of taking the leftist stance. The leftist stance is what get's us killed!

No, no, you are again confusing between myself and my suicide-bomber colleagues...

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quote:

Originally posted by oDrori No, no, you are again confusing between myself and my suicide-bomber colleagues...

NO i'm not!!!
i understand your position. I dont agree with it. I feel that its this position of being soft that gets us killed in the greatest numbers!

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quote:

Originally posted by melech_mike NO i'm not!!! i understand your position. I dont agree with it. I feel that its this position of being soft that gets us killed in the greatest numbers!

Hopefully we are not off-topicizing this thread too much, if this interrupts anyone I would willingly not continue the debate...

Anyway, my believe is that a large reaction is a result of fierce action rather than a passive policy (Yes, I understand that showing a tender side could also be mistranslated into a display of a weak side) and that Sharon's current policy is a wrong one, not only in the Arab-relations area, but also in the financial one as well (Hence, being an opposer of the right, I am a leftist).

I must admit though, that my opinions aren't nearly as left-minded as they used too, my political experience before the political forum were mostly ones of objecting the right-winged government, but in this forum pretty much all I've done regarding the Israeli politics life is defense... I had no idea we were being verbally-attacked on such a frequency and with such passion.

I have also grown a deep... How would I define it, not hatred, but a strong feeling of resentment for the political opinions of Leftist - extremist, pacifists, and whatever else followes he profile... I guess I see them now partially as most right-winged folks would see me, naive.

The thing is, the major most of right-winged citizens or ex-citizens of israel are extremist, hence there is only one major "type" of a right-winged (wo)man, which leads them to think there's only such one type of leftist as well... Unfortunately for me, there are many naive ones amongst us indeed... mostly in their teen years. I consider myself a moderate-leftist though, and my opinions are not that closed to theirs... I ask you not to generalize and am sory in advance if I have or will generalize anyone in here.

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missed this, a thread in my honour, thanks shlomo, i mean baron, i mean mike
to answer you're questions as best and honestly as I can

If Israel is "occupying" territories today, who was occupying them until 1967?
the palestinians, you can call them arabs, but all it shows is your ignorance and contempt for them. They have been known as the palestinians for a lot longer than people were known as israeli's

If the West Bank and Gaza belong to "Palestinians", why were they under the control of Jordan and Egypt until June 5, 1967?
it's a sorry fact that the palestinians are not the most fortunate group, and have never been well liked within the arab nations, which is strange seeing as the rest of the middle east would like nothing more than a creation of palestine...how things change.....

If Arab "Palestinians" just want their own state, why didn't they ask for it before 1967?
Who says they didn't? I hardly think you're clued up on the finer points of palestinian history

Why is it, according to many articles written in 1967, that when the Arabs talked about "occupied territories", they meant all of Israel?
I'm guessing they didn't like the jews being there
it's a sad fact that throughout the ages, the jewish people have not been the most popular (bit like the palestinians eh?)

quote:

Originally posted by rupert The things that you people say about what happened to the Arabs. This is DISGRACEFUL. You people have nothing to be fucking proud about. And to you Melech Mike and your wonderful IDF that you are so proud of .... READ. "Near a south Lebanese village occupied by Israeli troops, Lieutenant Daniel Pinto, the acting commander of an Israeli infantry company, strangled four Lebanese peasants whose bodies, tied hand and foot, wre later found in a well. Another Israeli officer, Lieutenant-Colonel Arye Sadeh, ordered the execution of one of his battalions prisoners during the first days of the advance into Lebanon. Pinto was court-martialled for his atrocity but the Israeli chief of staff, General Rafael Eitan, reduced the sentence to two years and then ordered Pintos release. Sadeh received two and a half years imprisonment and reduction in rank to major, a sentence that was later raised by an appeals court to five years and reduction to private. Eitan restored the original sentence. His specific orders to the Israeli army in 'Operation Litani' were 'to annihilate the terrorists and their infrastructure" From page 132 of Pity the Nation by Robert Fisk. A book which anyone who wants to know about the middle east would find edifying reading. The author has been witness to a lot of atrocities of which Israel has committed MORE than its fair share. In 1948-1949 the Jews deliberately decided to ethnically cleanse the Arabs. NO IFS NO BUTS NO FUCKING MAYBES. You want proof Rabin specifically talks about it in his biography. He was an army commander who ethnically cleansed the town of Lydda (or it could be Ramle) For original source material, Righteous Victims by Benny Morris provides quote, after quote, after quote, after quote from Jewish leaders during the wars saying EXACTLY what their intentions are. You people cant hide what you did any more than the Turks can hide what they did to the Armenians.

top notch post

from odori

quote:

Well, in 48-49, 67, 73, and yet in avrious other historic opportunities, the Muslims and otehr nice folks tried to ethnically cleanse the Jews didn't they? Add your but's, maybe's and if's below please.

Stick to the topic please dude, just because somemuslims and "nice folks" tried to do it to the jews, it doesn't give them the right to ethnically cleanse anyone!, you're trying to justify genocide!


now I do find this interesting that my name was in the top of this topic, I'd like to know why mike?
it's not the israeli people I have a problem with Mike, it's right wing extremism. And I find it ironic that for a race that has been persecuted thoughout history by right wing extremists, that the majority of israel voted for a right wing extremist with a history of persecuting the palestinians, but maybe thats just the kefia wearing anti semite in me
do fuck off mike, you're a fool

quote:

Originally posted by Az If Israel is "occupying" territories today, who was occupying them until 1967? the palestinians, you can call them arabs, but all it shows is your ignorance and contempt for them. They have been known as the palestinians for a lot longer than people were known as israeli's

We are the Israelis, formerly known as the Jews, which we were known that way for since approx. 5000 BC if I am not wrong... The palestinians recieved their title after the destruction of the 2nd temple in 70 AC, they were citizens from across the Babylon empire if I recall correctly - The Babylonians were based in Mesopotamia (or the area of Iraq today) and ruled the major most of today's middle east ... The people who live in those areas are known these days as Arabs.

quote:

Originally posted by Az If the West Bank and Gaza belong to "Palestinians", why were they under the control of Jordan and Egypt until June 5, 1967? it's a sorry fact that the palestinians are not the most fortunate group, and have never been well liked within the arab nations, which is strange seeing as the rest of the middle east would like nothing more than a creation of palestine...how things change.....

I disagree, but this is legitimate... plus, has been discussed far too many threads already.

quote:

Originally posted by Az If Arab "Palestinians" just want their own state, why didn't they ask for it before 1967? Who says they didn't? I hardly think you're clued up on the finer points of palestinian history

Got a point there, though their constant "requests" (demands I would say) spoke more of an "Expanded Syria" covering Lebanon, the current territories of Syria and the area which today is the state of Israel... As was agreed between Sheriff Hussein of Mecca and British Government Representative (Can't remember his exact role) McMahon during WW1.

quote:

Originally posted by Az from odori Stick to the topic please dude, just because somemuslims and "nice folks" tried to do it to the jews, it doesn't give them the right to ethnically cleanse anyone!, you're trying to justify genocide!

For the record, many Europeans tend to write my nicname odori instead of odrori ... I would much prefer you not to have that typo in it, guess it's your Net-Accent

Now for the part that matters:

I do not justify genocide, that post was just a turn around of another statement, I hope you have read it, as your own statement could be said for both sides : Just because some Israelis tried to ethnically cleanse the Palastinians, doesn't mean that all of them did and certainly doesn't give them the right to try do the same to the Israelis, now, does it?


Also, it bothers me to see that you insist on calling Melech Mike in names of other users ... Would you like me to call you Johnsmith (no offense to Johnsmith) just because you share similar opinions (Which is not surprising for Melech Mike and Shlomo)?

quote:

Originally posted by Az I find it ironic that for a race that has been persecuted thoughout history by right wing extremists, that the majority of israel voted for a right wing extremist with a history of persecuting the palestinians, but maybe thats just the kefia wearing anti semite in me

Such a shame indeed

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quote:

Originally posted by oDrori For the record, many Europeans tend to write my nicname odori instead of odrori ... I would much prefer you not to have that typo in it, guess it's your Net-Accent

I think somethings wrong, because I copy and pasted your nick from the reply page, I didnt type it, because I wanted to make sure, as I've gotten it wrong before

quote:

Now for the part that matters: I do not justify genocide, that post was just a turn around of another statement, I hope you have read it, as your own statement could be said for both sides : Just because some Israelis tried to ethnically cleanse the Palastinians, doesn't mean that all of them did and certainly doesn't give them the right to try do the same to the Israelis, now, does it?

I now realise the way I read what you said was a little off, I just reacted to what I saw, and didn't word it properly, sorry if I caused offence

quote:

Also, it bothers me to see that you insist on calling Melech Mike in names of other users ... Would you like me to call you Johnsmith (no offense to Johnsmith) just because you share similar opinions (Which is not surprising for Melech Mike and Shlomo)?

I caught mike out in the tranceairwaves room, under his DJ Baron guise (would never have known it was him if it wasn't for random and unprovoked denials on the hub). When I entered the room, I said "hey mike" and he said hey back.
Then went off on one about why Shlomo_Hamalech and Melech_Mike are not the same person, and eventually started talking as each of them in the 3rd person. I couldn't care less about the IP addresses being from different ISPs, he seems to protest the fact a little too much, as if he knows they're different because he makes sure they are. Not hard to do anyway, I post from 3 different IP's.....

quote:

Such a shame indeed

ok sorry if this is a bit off topic in the next pages. I'm on page 3 right now going through the thread and I thought it fair to point a critisim to the following point;

quote:

Originally posted by oDrori The 1920, 1921 and 1929 revolts were all arranged by Arab religous leaders and were solely based on hatred towards the Jews (Notice that these days it more anti-Zionism) and on the religous differences(!). Cities where Jews and Muslims leaved peacefully for centuries such as the now infamous city of Hebron were torn apart as hundreads of furious mobs murdered families of Jews in these revolts. They say terror is no way to achieve your goals these days... Some say it wasn't a way in those days either - Well then, how comes each of those revolts led to an official reduction of permitted Jew imigration licenses per-year on the British side?

Although the British justified their reductioin of Jewish immigration due to Balfour (as Jews made less jobs for Arabs the claim badly went)- there was not attempt to close off illegal Arab migration, which was the primary cause for the growing Arab population in the mandate of Palestine - a growth rate of 120% as Izzy pointed out in a time span of 20 or so years is not natrual growth, yet primarly immigration. Infact when one analyizes why such immigration did take place ones sees the prime reason was usually due to the new economic opprotunities created by the many new advanced european settlers to the area - the Jews.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus ok sorry if this is a bit off topic in the next pages. I'm on page 3 right now going through the thread and I thought it fair to point a critisim to the following point; Although the British justified their reductioin of Jewish immigration due to Balfour (as Jews made less jobs for Arabs the claim badly went)- there was not attempt to close off illegal Arab migration, which was the primary cause for the growing Arab population in the mandate of Palestine - a growth rate of 120% as Izzy pointed out in a time span of 20 or so years is not natrual growth, yet primarly immigration. Infact when one analyizes why such immigration did take place ones sees the prime reason was usually due to the new economic opprotunities created by the many new advanced european settlers to the area - the Jews.

That's not criticism... I never claimed otherwise

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