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Originally posted by bananas And has any of you noticed Perkins presence in the series? That trade didn't really work out neither for Boston or for OKC it seems.

The trade was made with the Lakers in mind. Unfortunately he doesn't match up as well against Chandler (way too athletic for him) so he disappeared.

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Originally posted by LAdazeNYnights Great players are defined by how they match up against their peers...how is there any argument against that? Of course players have more athleticism now than those that came before them - over time it's become embedded in the game. The game is constantly evolving. How great players are defined is not. I think Kobe is a top 10 players in the history of the game, at this point. Top 5? No. He's not better than Jordan, Chamberlain, Magic, Kareem, or Bird...I think those would be tough to argue - but he's a leader, he's a winner, and he's a great player. Maybe he isn't as pure a player as those others mentioned, but he's raw and he brings that assassins mentality to the game....

anyone who finds it shocking to see kobe in the all-time top 10 list has only seen lists biased towards 20th century players or doesnt know his accomplishments.

9-time all-nba first team
9-time all-nba defensive first team
13 time allstar
5 time champion
6th alltime in pts scored

he'll definitely retire in the 6-10 range

Man I can't wait for the all-time best NBA player rankings to come out.

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Originally posted by OrangestO This isn't about physics, this is about waves.

i didnt read the vag rant that both of you had going on, just the starting of the jordan v kobe argument

to compare kobe v jordan is not joke, i mean in terms of talent/skill, kobe IS one of the best (hate to admit it)...the difference is this

Jordan was a leader, a respected man on the court
(yes jordan had some off-court issues, same with kobe - cheated on his wife, etc)

who cares about all of that. You say Jordan had Rodman, Kerr, Pippen, etc....did you want me to list all the great Laker players that kobe played with? Jordan made his teammates better, thats why they are known names today.

Jordan came back and won anotehr 3 peat (never duplicated in sports)

Altough i cant argue with Kobe's skill/talent, his on-court persona is why i hate him. He TRYS to be the best (look at all star games, then man puts up 40 shots, just so he can win all star MVP). He trys to be like Jordan, Jordan wasnt TRYING to be better or than anyone or be anyone, he just wanted to win Championships. Kobe i find is more selvish like that. Look at the feud with Shaq, etc. Jordan who may have had problems with teammates, never kicked Pipen out of the team.

Jordan was Mr. Clutch

could go on and on and on....

Again, who cares and this is MY OPINION, (dont start another rag fight) but overall Jordan is miles ahead of Kobe....overall that is, skill/talent, Kobe can be compared to Jordan

just because he can be compared to Jordan doesnt mean kobe is better (in the skill/talent dept)

Exactly. The best players make everyone around them better. Kobe doesn't want the players around him to be better, because he always has to be the best player, to the point where he essentially ran a player off their team when he realized he wasn't the best player anymore. This is MY OPINION (please don't start crying again Kevin), but to be a true great, and to be mentioned among the likes of Jordan, Jabbar, Magic, etc. you need to be more than just numbers. Jordan changed the game of basketball forever, and Kobe has been desperately trying to copy that for his entire career, but he never will. If winning was all that Kobe cared about, he wouldn't have thrown one of his many fits to get the Lakers to send Shaq packing, even though he was more valuable to the team.

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Originally posted by OrangestO This isn't about physics, this is about waves.

Last edited by srussell0018 on May-26-2011 at 18:51

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Originally posted by the_vespertine it's almost as if the other team was TRYING to lose or something

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Originally posted by OrangestO This isn't about physics, this is about waves.

you wanna say Kobe is a similar player to MJ ok, Kobe is talented and has skil, ok....

but really, there is no comparisions (after doing a little numbers research) between the two

@The17sss

i would tend to agree with you, before i actually saw the numbers... however Kobe may be the 'closest thing to him' but the Kobe 'isnt that far off' is wrong...just goes to show you how great MJ really was

just type jordan vs kobe in google and you'll see why

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Originally posted by Mattinsanity anyone who finds it shocking to see kobe in the all-time top 10 list has only seen lists biased towards 20th century players or doesnt know his accomplishments. 9-time all-nba first team 9-time all-nba defensive first team 13 time allstar 5 time champion 6th alltime in pts scored he'll definitely retire in the 6-10 range

A little pet peeve of mine but I hate when people throw in the all-NBA first team and defensive team as accomplishments. If anyone has paid attention this year, Bryant got all-NBA defensive first teams purely on his name sake. He hasn't deserved that the past 2-3 years. He has been TERRIBLE on defense this year. Just look at the playoffs where it truly counted and see how many people just ran right past him. And Wade deserved the all-NBA first team over Bryant this year. I still think Bryant is in the top 15 discussion though but Bryant is gonna decline even further this year. He won't have Gasol and Bynum to pick up his slack much anymore.

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Originally posted by Burn Notice A little pet peeve of mine but I hate when people throw in the all-NBA first team and defensive team as accomplishments. If anyone has paid attention this year, Bryant got all-NBA defensive first teams purely on his name sake. He hasn't deserved that the past 2-3 years. He has been TERRIBLE on defense this year. Just look at the playoffs where it truly counted and see how many people just ran right past him. And Wade deserved the all-NBA first team over Bryant this year. I still think Bryant is in the top 15 discussion though but Bryant is gonna decline even further this year. He won't have Gasol and Bynum to pick up his slack much anymore.

pet peeve of mine too


Jordan 'defensive player of the year' 1987-1988 (1 of only 3 guards to ever claim that title btw) i think overshadows whichever number of times a person was on the nba all-defensive first team

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Originally posted by Burn Notice A little pet peeve of mine but I hate when people throw in the all-NBA first team and defensive team as accomplishments. If anyone has paid attention this year, Bryant got all-NBA defensive first teams purely on his name sake. He hasn't deserved that the past 2-3 years. He has been TERRIBLE on defense this year. Just look at the playoffs where it truly counted and see how many people just ran right past him. And Wade deserved the all-NBA first team over Bryant this year. I still think Bryant is in the top 15 discussion though but Bryant is gonna decline even further this year. He won't have Gasol and Bynum to pick up his slack much anymore.

you're absolutely right. kobe hasn't been a top tier defender in the past few seasons. nonetheless, he obviously has a strong case to be a top 10 player ever, if he isn't one already. then again, shaq has NEVER made it to the all-nba defensive first team and every nba fan with common sense has him high in the list of all-time greats.

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Originally posted by srussell0018 but to be a true great, and to be mentioned among the likes of Jordan, Jabbar, Magic, etc. you need to be more than just numbers.

Kobe is just numbers? I'd say someone like Dominique Wilkins is "just numbers".

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Originally posted by 84th Ave. @The17sss i would tend to agree with you, before i actually saw the numbers... however Kobe may be the 'closest thing to him' but the Kobe 'isnt that far off' is wrong...just goes to show you how great MJ really was

No doubt how great MJ was. No equal. I definitely acknowledge your point that Kobe being the closest thing to him doesn't make him a virtual facsimile of the guy... but it certainly separates him from most other players in league history. When you have Magic saying Kobe may supplant him as the best Laker ever, that says something. Shit I miss the days of Magic in his prime.