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Originally posted by psychosomatica Actually.. I don't think it's that inconceivable. If Washington walks away, they're pretty much screwed. I believe the American people understood more about their relationship with Israel, there might be a public backlash. I'm not talking about Israel's contentious actions either. Israel gets about 3B usd of aid per year from the US (no strings attached, a condition which does not exist in any other aid agreement). I think it's been estimated that Israel has received 140B from the US since its inception. As a practical godless citizen, I would ask myself why my government gives $10 of my money to these guys I don't even know. Now, of course, there are those who are considered part of the 'Israel Lobby' or whatever you want to call it. But many of these are politicians which would have to change their stance if the perception of the American public changed (which I don't believe is too far away given the amount of information available today). All those vetoes and money would disappear in a flash. The argument that Israel is the ally of the United States blah blah blah spreading democracy... all makes no sense. They're not even there to spread the American agenda. They can't do anything for America... unlike say China.. or Pakistan or India. And remember, this is ALL from a practical point of view.. no religious, political or economic biases.

And what exactly is the reality of that ever happening?
Wait. I know. How about never.

I agree that Israel doesn't really push an American agenda which begs the question, what is this relationship really about?
I understand America supports them but for what purpose?
Big business dealings and contracts?
A beacon of democracy in the thick of backwards Islamic theocracy?
Huge Israeli nationalist lobbies back in the U.S.?

There's no doubt about the strength of the relationship that's for sure.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer you would think for a race that has been through holocaust would know much better then this.I guess some never learn. I have a feeling that this current situation could be the end for Israel.

I guess your refering to the human race, and the fact that since the holocaust there should have been no war. Ever.
Weapons manufacture continues...

with each passing day things just get worse

quote:

Israel 'using chemical weapons' From: Reuters From correspondents in Beirut July 27, 2006 LEBANON is investigating reports from doctors that Israel has used weapons in its 15-day-old bombardment of southern Lebanon that have caused wounds they have never seen before. \"We are sending off samples tomorrow, but we have no confirmation yet that illegal weapons have been used,\" Health Minister Mohammed Khalife said. The Israeli army said it had used only conventional weapons and ammunition in attacks aimed at Hezbollah guerrillas and nothing contravening international law. Blackened bodies have been showing up at hospitals in southern Lebanon two weeks into the war between Israel and Hezbollah guerrillas that has seen at least 418 people, mostly civilians, killed in Lebanon and at least 42 Israelis. Killed by Israeli air raids, the Lebanese dead are charred in a way local doctors, who have lived through years of civil war and Israeli occupation, say they have not seen before. Bachir Cham, a Belgian-Lebanese doctor at the Southern Medical Centre in Sidon, received eight bodies after an Israeli air raid on nearby Rmeili which he said exhibited such wounds. He has taken 24 samples from the bodies to test what killed them. He believes it is a chemical. Dr Cham said the bodies of some victims were \"black as shoes, so they are definitely using chemical weapons. They are all black but their hair and skin is intact so they are not really burnt. It is something else\". \"If you burnt someone with petrol their hair would burn and their skin would burn down to the bone. The Israelis are 100 per cent using chemical weapons.\" Lebanese President Emile Lahoud has repeatedly accused Israel of using phosphorus bombs in its offensive. Human Rights Watch, which has accused the Israeli army of using cluster bombs in populated areas of southern Lebanon, said it had not verified claims that Israel had used phosphorus. \"We are investigating but we haven't confirmed anything yet. We have seen phosphorus used before and we have seen it in the artillery stocks of the Israeli army in the north,\" said Peter Bouckaert, emergencies director at Human Rights Watch. \"Phosphorus shells do have a legitimate use in illuminating the battlefield at night. The offensive use of phosphorus would be a violation of international conventions.\" Television footage shows some bodies, such as those of 20 civilians killed when an Israeli missile hit the van in which they were fleeing the border village of Marwaheen, blackened in the way Dr Cham describes. No one knows what killed them. \"We are seeing abnormal burns, different from wars we've seen in the past. The corpses of these victims are shrinking to half their normal size. You think it is the corpse of a child at first but it turns out to be a grown man,\" said Raed Salman Zeinedine, director of Tyre Government Hospital. \"We've never seen anything like it but what the causes are I don't want to speculate. We have no scientific answer.\" The Israel Army said it did not target civilians at all. \"We use only weapons and ammunition which will best hit our targets and cause least collateral damage,\" said army spokesman Captain Jacob Dallal. \"It could be that a body is burned from fire or the force of an explosion, but between that and suggesting we do something illegal under international law are two different things.\"

news.com.au

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Originally posted by Purple These are after the invasion, I am asking for any terrorist incident before the arrest and invasion of Lebanon. .

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Around 3 p.m. (8 a.m. ET), Hezbollah fighters began firing Katyusha rockets, mortars and machine guns into several Israeli towns and villages. Hezbollah rockets also hit an army base near the Israel-Lebanon border, the Israeli army said. An Israeli soldier was moderately wounded when a Hezbollah sniper fired at a group of soldiers in Kibbutz Manara on the Israel-Lebanon border, according to the IDF

Taken from CNN Sunday May 28. Isreal retaliated.
Link

Im only going to post one argument, and then maybe some other stuff after (doubtful though).

Israel cannot destroy Hizballah with military force, military pressure, scare tactics, threat of invasion, or any such nonsense. Hizballah is part of the Lebanese government, Hizballah is stronger than the Lebanese military, and Lebanon itself is on a tight leash because of outside interests. (IE: Syria/Iran) Hizballah is also, quite simply, too well dug in and Israel simply will not defeat them from the Air/Sea/Ground, they will sustain too many losses and eventually just get their troops out of there and just try to bomb stuff.

In my opinion, Israel is pushing it's luck. By doing these things in Lebanon they are begging Iran to get involved, note I didnt mention Syria as Syria is being bullied into the corner by the big nasty Americans and Europeans at the moment. Iran however, is a badass and will pretty much do anything to defy anyone, nevermind the fact that Iran has 10 times the population of Israel, and a huge military. For the time being however, I believe Iran will fight its battle against Israel through Hizballah, which doesnt bode well for Israel either.


My post isnt regarding the outside interests/military standpoints, its more regarding the Lebanese people and the suffering they must endure because of Israel's OVERENTHUSIASTIC reaction. All the Israelis/Jews in this board can call me out on this, I dont care, I firmly believe that Israel could have been just as effective using other means to target Hizballah, they are doing what they're doing to send a message and to insight fear and EVEN MORE instability into southern Lebanon, if Israel were as smart as they think they are, they'd realize that more instability in the region poses an even greater threat to their Northern cities, and while the Israeli politicians get on infront of the cameras and state things like "We are for peace and stability in this region" they are dooming themselves to hypocricy right then and there. Bombing roads, bridges, airports and making life difficult for rescue operations is just causing more and more CHAOS and INSTABILITY.

CHAOS

AND

IN-STA-BIL-ITY!

THIS IS THE LAST THING ISRAEL WANTS, AND THIS IS THE FIRST THING THE OUTSIDE INTERESTS IN HIZBALLAH WANT!

Iran is smarter than Israel, Iran has opened its history book, and looked next door in Iraq to see that instability and "seemingly" out of control militant groups can wreak unspeakable havoc upon any opponent. In Iraq fighting men, (US and Iraqi soldiers) are getting blown up daily, what will happen when Israel claims to have quelled Hizballah? I predict suicide attacks on Northern Israeli cities, aswell as suicide attacks in Southern Israel by Hamas and other Palestinian groups. ISRAEL IS EVENTUALLY GOING TO LOSE CONTROL OF THIS SITUATION, and not even the USA, or Europe will be able to help Israel pick up the pieces.


If you want me to dig deeper into my conspiracy theory chest that I store for a rainy day, I predict that Iran is using this situation to divert attention away from their nuclear ambitions, Iran will eventually emerge with a nuclear weapon and tell Israel to move back to the original line, Israel will be forced to do this because it will not want to wage war against a country that A) Has a nuclear weapon B) has 10 times the population and C) wont be attacked by Americans/Europeans for the same reason as A). You cannot attack a country that has nukes with your military, because eventually someone will launch them and game over for earth.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r You must be joking. We all know this has situation has been building since Syria left Lebanon to rot with the Hizbullah aka Iranian Guard dogs, so lets put down the bong and get off our high horse for a second. It's the Hizbullah that dragged everyone into this, that point is incontestable and they're to blame for being this upon the Lebanese people. Why is this so hard to understand?

Hezbullah this Hezbullah that.

I cant believe how one sided you are on this.For the love of god get some brain and look close and see who is really to blame here.Hezbullah will be bigger and more powerful then even thanks to Isreal.I can asure that this whole situation will back fire on Israel big time.

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quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer Hezbullah this Hezbullah that.

exactly! Hezbollah this



hezbollah that



hezbollah this



Hezbollah that



Hezbollah this



Hezbollah that



before 9/11 Hezbollah killed more Americans that any Islamic terror organization in the world. So………..



Hezbollah that mutherf**ker

Last edited by Q5echo on Jul-27-2006 at 05:34

The world will learn once again, that conventional "modern" warfare simply doesn't work.

"Smart" bombs, and surgical strikes do nothing but demolish infrastructure and hurt innocent civilians.

Dug in guerilla fighters are immune to this kind of bombing campaign.

The only way to strike fear into the hearts of enemies and TRUELY irradiate them is through brutal nuclear bombardment.

When the dust clears. And they look at a huge fucking crater. THEN. ONLY THEN. Will people get that it's a lot better to try to get along (or give up), then it is to get a “nuclear fuck attack” dropped on them. They will quickly learn that if they keep on fighting, even if they win--- what will they have to show for it? A fat crater that was once the very homes they were defending.

But the world is too wimpy to use nuclear weapons. Pandora's box was opened long ago, and there's no way the beautiful evil of nuclear weapons can be put back in the box.

Why not use them. Why not show some balls.

The US and Israel are constantly getting fucked over by pulling out just before they come. These sorts of tactics only encourage would-be terrorists. It gives them hope to keep fighting-- that they MIGHT actually win.

Whether you’re on Israel’s side or against them, you can’t deny the beauty that nuclear weapons hold as the most destructive negotiator ever created.

*sigh*

But take everything I say with a big grain of salt. I’m kind of a nuclear bug. To be honest, all this loss of innocent life is very tragic, on both sides. But this long drawn out pain and suffering could be ended with the brutal force of nuclear weapons.

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Originally posted by DJFreaq To be honest, all this loss of innocent life is very tragic, on both sides. But this long drawn out pain and suffering could be ended with the brutal force of nuclear weapons.

yeah. good solution d00d.

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Originally posted by ronk yeah. good solution d00d.

What can I say. I love the bomb.

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I'm historically very sympathetic to Israel. But this whole war is completely at odds with what common sense tells me. I think it's alienating moderation in the middle east ... Lebanon being one of the leaders for moderation. FFS they've held massive rallies that resulted in the eviction of Syria from the Lebanese government. Lebanon has been one of the shining examples that the US has used as an example of progress in the middle east. Where the fuck are they now? What do you think is happneing now that Syria is Lebanon's best friend? I understand that Israel needs to halt Hizbollah rocket attacks against Israel. And the if a cease fire does not accomplish this than the cease fire should be violated by Israel. But seriously let the other side do the polictical faux pas ... this is a war of reputation that Israel cannot win.

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