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Originally posted by Cyrus King What the fuck is this shit im reading? Why do you (torontotrance) see marriage as defined only from a religious view? This is backward thinking in my opinion. The definition of marriage will and is being changed. Why cant a man and a man who love each other be recognized by the government? Just becuase they each have a dick doesnt meant they should be denied that choice....This reminds me of the time blacks couldnt vote becuase they were BLACK.. this is discriminatory and i blame religion for all this disgusting ignorance that has raped the minds of millions. I cant beleive a book written in a society thousands of years ago, still has people who adamantly defend its hypocracy. I am glad canada is taking steps to recognize it...they are human and they are capable of loving each other...and like a man and a woman who love each other, they should be respectful of their emotions as well.

agreed 100%

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Originally texted by Jakhira Out with the dog at the moment. Chicks love him, and I love chicks... The world is in harmony

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Originally posted by torontotrance why lump me in with pat robertson i don't agree with him

Well, that's a sigh of relief. However, I wasn't necessarily lumping you in with Robertson here. My point made was more or less showing how certain Christians (not necessarily you) pick and choose on certain events to fit their present agendas. The bottom line is, many Christian sects have different interpretations of the Bible, and many tend to pick and choose as to what they believe is right and wrong - though there are a few verses which are, no doubt, universal (don't kill, no adultery, he who hasn't sinned cast the first stone, etc. etc.). I find homosexuality interpretations falling under the same sword. If you haven't noticed, there's a big debate brewing in the clergy in various Christian factions (though the Catholic faith laid down the ax specifically).

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yes..i do have gay friends...yes i have had serious discussions with them. I have no problems with them being gay (tho i think being gay is wrong but it's their decision..they are their own people) and I will not support their lifestyle. You can cry all you damn well please about gay marriage not being accepted. Till my dying day....I will not support it and I will be against it.

"From hell's hot, I stab at thee!!!!!!!!!"

Sorry, "Till my dying day" just sounded kinda funny. I try to hold all my gushing tears back on this subject, but man I just can't stand it! My bleeding liberal heart pours out to these darn queers! I thought I'd play the part for you a little better. But I'll tell you what, I've learned that arguing points that counters an avid Christian's fundamental beliefs is next to impossible, and that they will only learn other points of view on their own (if ever), so let's just call this one of those "agree to disagree" issues, since it will counter your firmly-held beliefs.

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See it's fed up people like you that bore me.

Man, you want to get really bored, go back and read some of my other rants in the Chill-Out Room. Extreme boredom at work causes extreme rants.

[/QUOTE]You complain and complain and say I'm not open minded. But you don't see me attacking your view and your religion.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps it's because I don't express my religious views to the world. You're more than welcome to attack my views - shit that happens all the time. It's called a debate (which is strikingly similar to the name of this particular forum). You want to bring your religious beliefs to the table, and then cry "foul" for anyone attacking your particular beliefs in that religion, I guess the obvious guy would tell you not to bring your religion here in the first place, lest you come prepared for opposing views.

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I am open minded but religion is what I believe and it is what I follow. The church I am from, has never said..hate gays...never said...gays are evil. It simply has stated what the Bible says and what I choose to live by...that homosexuality is a sin and we will not support it

I'm glad your church has never said that, and that does clear up some stereotypical views I might have branded you with earlier. But as I said earlier, different churches as well as different factions of Christianity have different interpretations of the Bible, homosexuality is definitely one of those interpretations. You accept the traditional interpretation that homosexuality is a sin and therefore gay marriage is sinful and wrong, great. But again, my point is God certainly says a lot of different things to a lot of the same people who read the same Book He has given them.

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I will continue to have gay friends and at no point have I attempted to convert them.

I find myself somewhat skeptical of the fact that you may have gay friends, but I'll go along with you here. I'm glad you're not a proselytizer though. I've got enough proselytizers on a certain side of my family to make the whole world nutty.

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You stereotype christians again...common stupidity ...you lump me in with all the christians. Have some christians tried to convert the world....yes....have I ever tried...NO. If someone wants to know more about christianity...I'm more than happy to answer the questions to the best of my ability. I don't force anything on anyone....ppl blame the christians for that. You realize that just a small group (maybe .2% of the total population have done that)....the church I go to...we don't force anything on anyone. Everyone makes their own decision....just like with the gay marriage thing. Take the analogy of food...if you force something down your throat...you normally throw it back up and the vomit leaves a bad taste in your mouth. I view religion like that..let ppl decide on their own time and force nothing.

Alrighty then. Sounds fine to me, except the part of stereotyping Christians. Your staunch opposition to Gay marriage and homosexuality being "sinful" (a Christian word, mind you), coupled with your known fundamental Christian beliefs has led me to conclude, perhaps inaccurately, that you might fit a certain stereotype.

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I can see why people are mad at the us gov't but people continue to attack (the non right wing christians) for simply our beliefs.

This subject should be saved for another thread, but you hit upon the obvious reason as to why there's an attack: because the right-wing religious nuts are running our damn country (into the ground, I might add). It is these fundamentalist whackos who's pulling a good handful of Bush's strings, and has created quite a stink around the world with his "with us or against us"-everything-is-either-black-or-white policy, and coincides directly to his religious beliefs (which he has stated numerous times). I've got a major problem with that, as do many others. A thing called the separation of Church and State should be mandated and controlled, especially in ALL government policies, speeches and rhetoric, and Legislative bills. Bush the idiot that he is, tends to neglect this particular fact, and his push against homosexuality because to him "it's a sin" is no different.

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We don't attack atheists for not believing there is a God...we let you live your own lives....(well most decent christians do...cept the crazy right wing christians...who don't speak for most of us)...so I suggest you allow Christians to have their opinion that homosexuality is wrong and allow us to continue living our lives instead of attacking us for being against an issue. It's a free society and as far as I'm concerned....the religious group I associate with..will not say attack gays...we simply say marriage is sacred....we believe a man and a woman meets the definition of a marriage and we believe that homosexuality is wrong. End of discussion....

Again, I'll just agree to disagree with you here on this entire topic. But don't act so damn surprised that you're being debated on your beliefs - that is the nature of this particular forum. It is a debate, so come prepared to back yourself up at times. If you bring religious beliefs into the mix, come very prepared - because you should know by now that's rather touchy.

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and for those people telling me to be open minded be open minded and respect my beliefs..

Out of respect for you, I will do my best to "do onto others..." in the future.

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Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

i know damn well it's a debate

but the debate often crosses the line...then again..the line is blurred.

I don't think the usa is run by right wing fundamentalists

my gosh...bush claims to be a christian but then again...he belongs to the skulls cult.

I just think in any country...you have certain people who run the country...but it gets blurred by religion and politics. Religion and State separation is a completely different issue.

I mean look at Canada, our prime minister claims to be a devout Catholic but has consistantly broken rules as prime minister...some he even set up. So the Cdn supreme court declares gay marriage legal and then the firestorm hit the fan. I don't suspect it ever will..on one side you have the gay and lesbians and their supporters and ppl who believes in their cause vs. the religious groups (not just christians and catholics...we have jewish ppl mad at it and also muslims against it). Now each side wants their agenda dealt with...the religious side says..let them have tax benefits (which was their entire fight in the first place...not marriage) and let marriage be a union between man and a woman. That's it....but the marriage line was blurred and it upset a lot of people not just because of homosexuals marrying but because the cdn gov't refused to deal with the issue (so typically cdn....mind you)...and had to let the courts deal with it...and it hit the news...a day before the decision. Decision was made...first person to get married was a crown attorney and his b.f of 20 something yrs. So different provinces have the option to use the not withstanding clause which means if the federal gov't makes a decision..and it falls under section 2 or 7-15 of the cdn charter of rights and freedoms...provinces can refuse to go with it. So my province and our wussy premier...who is up for an election very very soon....decides to allow the decision to stand. Alberta adds fuel to the fire...when the ever popular and stubborn premier ralph klein...decides to invoke the notwithstanding clause (rarely used btw). It adds fuel to the fire....then a few groups decide to challenge the legality of the law in court (which they always do...same groups...same lawyers)....meanwhile the gov't minister decides they will change the definition of marriage which pissed off religious ppl because it all happened so quickly and the gov't's refusal to deal with it and make a decision till the supreme court decided it.

This happens...dubya finds out about this..and hears...certain groups think gay marriage will be legalized in the states. All because of another country...and mind you....they made a law stating marriage was a union between a man and a woman during the clinton era. So they need to do nothing.....but groups get mad and the crazy ass right wing fundamentalists...who are nutty even by this christian's (ME!) standards...

some get mad...the whole debate breaks out

i think the bigger issue here is gov't's refusal to make decisions on hot button topics. That's the whole point behind this problem because it was Canada's own gov't refusal to make a decision and let the courts decide it....when they knew it would irk ppl..because the courts of course were going to decide on human rights.