quote:

Originally posted by igottaknow ps I just remembered some funny phrase back in college that someone has lost an argument when the envoke either god or hitler to prove their point.

Even when the argument is about God or Hitler?


Oh and about that montie, I have a lot of questions about the story of Adam and Eve as well. Among them:
- Why would Adam want a companion, when he was technically a hermaphrodite and had no concept of man or woman?
- Why would God create Eve from Adam's rib, when he was an all-powerful being that could have created her instantly from dust?
- Having given Adam and Eve the gift of Free Will, what was the purpose of making that tree? Simply to prove that they truly did have Free Will? If so, why the need for extravagance, why not just pick an ordinary "placebo" apple tree and watch the results?
- How could Adam and Eve have understood that it would be wrong to disobey God's orders, prior to them having any knowledge of what right or wrong was? Following that, how could God have logically expected them to obey those orders?
- According to the story, Adam and Eve hide their privates in fig leaves after discovering right and wrong. Considering that they were the only two humans on the planet and that clothes hadn't been invented yet, how was their nakedness shameful?
- Where was the Garden of Eden - surely we must have some vague info on its geographical location?
- Doesn't an eternity of damnation for all humanity seem a bit harsh when they didn't understand the rule they were breaking? How can God call himself forgiving under these circumstances?
- Through what medium did God communicate with Adam and Eve?
- Why should we be forever grateful to a God that has punished us for all eternity because of the mistakes our 50,000-year-old ancestors made?

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Kewlness got it right, I am Christian, i Beleive that there is a God, and not because i chose to beleive it but because i had no choice, its just so glaringly obvious. When it comes down to it, when you can pray and get answer to those prayers moments later, things that may have happened naturally but the chances are miniscule.

Also it is fair to say that there is more evidence of the life and deity of Jesus Christ than there is of the Geco-Persian war, which any classical historian would accept without a trace of disbeleif. Look at the chance of all 48 or so prophecies in the old testament happening (of which there are copies dating from before the life of Christ) One Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion Trillion to one, and that is not a made up statistic, that is an actual mathematical probablity. If that does not prove the Deity of Jesus Christ and therefore the the existance of a God then i don't now what does. For further reading se Lee Strobel - The Case For Christ.

I admit that i don't beleive in creation, i see it more that God created the universe and set things in motion, he didn't create everything from nothing, he may have created some things from other things (evolution) but science cannot prove anything except how a few of these changes worked. I mean scientists can see individual atom but they cannot even contemplate what god can see (he can count every hair on everyones head in an instant if He actually felt it worthwhile). The Cross is a brilliant example, He set things in motion and allowed it to pan out. It wasn't as if He wasn't interfering at all but He does give people the choice. The problem with that if you know the truth then you can only make one choice.

I mean my life was so superficial before i discovered God, i may have felt happy and full on worldly things but really your life means nothing and you begin to wonder what it all means. The problem here is if you go down the path of the nihilist or athiest then its just a slippery path into utter depression.

Edit/
Diginut- you can go on complaining about things like the creation but really thats all just metaphorical and all but most die hard Christian faiths are now succumbed to that. Not that that is a bad thing at all, we just have a better understanding of the way God works. The creation details the fall, something i don't beleive actually happened because i think humans will always be flawed. Picking holes in bible verses has always been the way of the athiest but in the end it doesn't pay because there is so much overwhelming and proven truth in the bible that all your doing is narrowing your vision.

___________________
if i had a hammer...

i hope you all realize that you can reason in and out of ANYTHING, and that this debate will never stop because of that, it is just one huge cycle that will always lead to the same place ... NOWHERE.

quote:

[b] Originally posted by netw3rkd{/b] pussy there is no god you just think that so you will feel better im not trying to sound bad to you or anything, because we all have our believes, but i dont believe there is a god if there was, would he / she let me be addicted to meth? or suffer extremly from 9823743 disorders? meh whatever

your letting yourself be addicted to meth, that is your choice

if you ever get a chance to have revelations explained to you, you would understand why he / she (Jesus in this case) is letting you have all these problems.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Even when the argument is about God or Hitler? Oh and about that montie, I have a lot of questions about the story of Adam and Eve as well. Among them: - Why would Adam want a companion, when he was technically a hermaphrodite and had no concept of man or woman? - Why would God create Eve from Adam's rib, when he was an all-powerful being that could have created her instantly from dust? - Having given Adam and Eve the gift of Free Will, what was the purpose of making that tree? Simply to prove that they truly did have Free Will? If so, why the need for extravagance, why not just pick an ordinary "placebo" apple tree and watch the results? - How could Adam and Eve have understood that it would be wrong to disobey God's orders, prior to them having any knowledge of what right or wrong was? Following that, how could God have logically expected them to obey those orders? - According to the story, Adam and Eve hide their privates in fig leaves after discovering right and wrong. Considering that they were the only two humans on the planet and that clothes hadn't been invented yet, how was their nakedness shameful? - Where was the Garden of Eden - surely we must have some vague info on its geographical location? - Doesn't an eternity of damnation for all humanity seem a bit harsh when they didn't understand the rule they were breaking? How can God call himself forgiving under these circumstances? - Through what medium did God communicate with Adam and Eve? - Why should we be forever grateful to a God that has punished us for all eternity because of the mistakes our 50,000-year-old ancestors made?

not gonan do point by poiint, but throw in the fact that they were intelligent and self-aware and you have something. They werent being damned, they basically chose to leave the sheltering palm of God.

ok fine ill do point by point

the nakedness was shameful not in a "im in class and Im wearing only underwear" kind of way, but a general, I shouldnt walk around flopping my dick around way, this needs to be covered up. Its why a lot of people still wear boxers when they sleep

the location is theorized to be between tigres and euphrates in mesopotamia

and the rib thing has tons of ideas behind it the main one being that everything is stemming from Adam, and it was setting up the relationship between man and woman, in ephesians it even says that when you get married you are supposed to be 1 flesh 1 spirit, so that idea is stemming from that original creation. and no, i didnt look that up.


we arent supposed to be grateful, we are supposed to realize that we still sin and ask forgiveness for that.

quote:

Originally posted by Pheobius "Also it is fair to say that there is more evidence of the life and deity of Jesus Christ than there is of the Geco-Persian war, which any classical historian would accept without a trace of disbeleif…"

You put forth a good argument, but my point is how crazy it sounds when ppl say the existence of god can be proved or disproved. As ludicrous as the gods I sighted may sound there is no amount of evidence you can present that will disprove their existence. This should give you a taste of what feels like when someone brings their religion into the argument.

Even your point that Jesus existed doesn’t prove anything. All of the great religions are started by an individual who is either a prophet or god himself. Let’s take a more current and popular polyistic religion (Hinduism). Could all of their followers have gotten it wrong? Buddha really existed and more than one person verified his existence, it’s there in the holy text, so it must be true... My point here is just because a person proclaimed himself a messenger of god and a bunch of ppl believed him, doesn’t make what he says any truer or better prove the existence of his god.

Christians purists love to have it both ways especially when talking about the Bible. For a long time the church has argued it could be taken in verbatim as truth, now they have changed their tune that its an allegory and isn’t meant to be taken literally. Now a days it's in fashion to pick and choose which sections are allegory or are literally the truth, based on what best supports their personal take. Btw, I believe in the allegory theory, which would not make it a very definative source to prove anything.

___________________
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Last edited by igottaknow on Oct-11-2003 at 19:15

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Even when the argument is about God or Hitler? Oh and about that montie, I have a lot of questions about the story of Adam and Eve as well. Among them: - Why would Adam want a companion, when he was technically a hermaphrodite and had no concept of man or woman? - Why would God create Eve from Adam's rib, when he was an all-powerful being that could have created her instantly from dust? - Having given Adam and Eve the gift of Free Will, what was the purpose of making that tree? Simply to prove that they truly did have Free Will? If so, why the need for extravagance, why not just pick an ordinary "placebo" apple tree and watch the results? - How could Adam and Eve have understood that it would be wrong to disobey God's orders, prior to them having any knowledge of what right or wrong was? Following that, how could God have logically expected them to obey those orders? - According to the story, Adam and Eve hide their privates in fig leaves after discovering right and wrong. Considering that they were the only two humans on the planet and that clothes hadn't been invented yet, how was their nakedness shameful? - Where was the Garden of Eden - surely we must have some vague info on its geographical location? - Doesn't an eternity of damnation for all humanity seem a bit harsh when they didn't understand the rule they were breaking? How can God call himself forgiving under these circumstances? - Through what medium did God communicate with Adam and Eve? - Why should we be forever grateful to a God that has punished us for all eternity because of the mistakes our 50,000-year-old ancestors made?

First of all, Genesis isn't meant to be 100% literal. For all we know, it could be a completely symbolic account of what happened or it could have been completely literal and everything in it has actually happened.

Here are some articles to answer a couple of your questions:
http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/edenfnd.pdf
http://www.apologeticspress.org/faq/r&r9312a.htm

and here are some more articles for you to browse through
http://www.apologeticspress.org/tree1.htm

i am not trying to preach or convert anyone but I think that these guys puts up a good argument for creationists and explains things logically

We, as christians, don't have the answers to everything. In fact, I believe we have less answers than atheists. I say this because we do not rely on ourselves to find the answers, but rather we rely on God. A lot of people are not willing to accept the whole idea of serving a higher power that they cannot sense with their five physical senses and therefore dismiss God as being BS. Like I said before, I chose to believe first, and then I found that God revealed Himself to me; not the other way around.

I hope that this clarifies some things. Feel free to disagree.

quote:

Originally posted by Bondor your letting yourself be addicted to meth, that is your choice

thats true, but still...based on my opinions, i dont believe in god

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quote:

Originally posted by kewlness First of all, Genesis isn't meant to be 100% literal. For all we know, it could be a completely symbolic account of what happened or it could have been completely literal and everything in it has actually happened.

Here, I agree with you. In fact, I have absolutely no beef with people who like to view the story of Adam and Eve, or other biblical references, for example Noah's Ark, as metaphorical. I'm born Jewish, and people who seriously learn the religion (not just who've read the bible) will understand that it is in fact meant to be taken metaphorically, that the book itself is a book of laws, not history.

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax the nakedness was shameful not in a "im in class and Im wearing only underwear" kind of way, but a general, I shouldnt walk around flopping my dick around way, this needs to be covered up. Its why a lot of people still wear boxers when they sleep

So you can believe that shame is instinctual, but not sex (as you posted recently against evolution)?

quote:

the location is theorized to be between tigres and euphrates in mesopotamia

Theorized on what evidence that doesn't come from the Bible?

quote:

and the rib thing has tons of ideas behind it the main one being that everything is stemming from Adam, and it was setting up the relationship between man and woman, in ephesians it even says that when you get married you are supposed to be 1 flesh 1 spirit, so that idea is stemming from that original creation. and no, i didnt look that up.

I'm sorry but this is just entirely too vague to comment on and doesn't answer my question at all. Are you saying it's metaphorical? And if you are, can you accept that maybe the story didn't happen at all as told?

quote:

we arent supposed to be grateful, we are supposed to realize that we still sin and ask forgiveness for that.

Sin based on "God's" definition of sin, which can be for example sewing a garment with two kinds of fabric - why should I be asking forgiveness for something that doesn't have any logical reason for being a "sin?" And again, ramp that back up to Adam - why should he have been cast out of the garden and had to spend his life asking for forgiveness for eating a fruit that he didn't understand why he couldn't eat?

___________________
My party schedule:
2009-02-21 - DJ Attention @ I'm So Popular
2009-06-18 - DJ Annoying @ People Need To Know Where I'll Be
2012-11-32 - DJ Insufferable ɸ Or At Least the Stalkers I Complain About
2048-06-66 - Spastic & Whocares ¶ Although I'm Actually Flattered
9999-45-81 - Tweaker Gimp ☼ I Probably Won't Even Go To This But I Have To Make Sure I Fill Up All The Available Space Here

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Sin based on "God's" definition of sin, which can be for example sewing a garment with two kinds of fabric - why should I be asking forgiveness for something that doesn't have any logical reason for being a "sin?" And again, ramp that back up to Adam - why should he have been cast out of the garden and had to spend his life asking for forgiveness for eating a fruit that he didn't understand why he couldn't eat?

well i think i can answer this. how do you know what God wants or doesnt want? to me, it seems that for that exact time and place, whatever is the right choice that works for you and doesnt cause you to have a guilty conscience, is in fact what God wants. a sin is something you feel remorse for, something you know isnt right. if you feel bad, its a sin. if you dont feel bad, its fine. if you feel like killing your best friend, despite how nonemotional you appear to other people, deep down you really know its a really horrible thing. but God gave us free will, so its your decision to ask for forgiveness or not. with every decision, there is a consequence - good or bad. but its always your decision

think of God as your caring mom or dad. they want the best for you and tells you not to do bad things, but they cant stop you from doing them. whats a loving parent to do??

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by Lost Inhibition well i think i can answer this. how do you know what God wants or doesnt want? to me, it seems that for that exact time and place, whatever is the right choice that works for you and doesnt cause you to have a guilty conscience, is in fact what God wants. a sin is something you feel remorse for, something you know isnt right. if you feel bad, its a sin. if you dont feel bad, its fine. if you feel like killing your best friend, despite how nonemotional you appear to other people, deep down you really know its a really horrible thing. but God gave us free will, so its your decision to ask for forgiveness or not. with every decision, there is a consequence - good or bad. but its always your decision think of God as your caring mom or dad. they want the best for you and tells you not to do bad things, but they cant stop you from doing them. whats a loving parent to do??

Okay. While I don't follow this principle myself, I respect that position in its entirety, and if it helps you find your way through life, then by all means, follow it!

I'm not here to debate faith as a way of life, just as a way of explaining the universe.

___________________
My party schedule:
2009-02-21 - DJ Attention @ I'm So Popular
2009-06-18 - DJ Annoying @ People Need To Know Where I'll Be
2012-11-32 - DJ Insufferable ɸ Or At Least the Stalkers I Complain About
2048-06-66 - Spastic & Whocares ¶ Although I'm Actually Flattered
9999-45-81 - Tweaker Gimp ☼ I Probably Won't Even Go To This But I Have To Make Sure I Fill Up All The Available Space Here

No matter what your problems are, religion is never the answer. If religious adherents applied the same logic to their everyday activities as they do to their cosmology, I can assure you that every single one of them would be dead.