o and for the record, yale trance, made some amazing points there. I listen to alot of classical music and thats part of hte reason i started listening to trance.........

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN I have 3 hobbies: gaming, DJing & correcting maladjusted fools on the internet.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Yeah, I’d like to know what horrible, scarring incident in your childhood turned you into such an ignorant, intellectual-hating philistine?

Great read here. Obviously I cant fully relate to all points made ( I have zero musical theory knowledge) but I kinda "sense" what you're talking about Creativity within a clear formula/frame?

okay, here we go. Finally some substance:

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Originally posted by YaleTrance However, this quote right here shows a rationale for your lack of comprehensive understanding on the whole epic/anthem fiasco. What I'm talking about is sociocultural values that people utilize when appreciating music.

As evidenced in this thread, indeed. But I never once talked about the sociocultural attachments to the music. I'm talking about judging the music on its own worth, merit, and intent. It's implications on the scenes and peoples who revel in it is unnecessary and superfluous here. Perhaps in another thread.

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Have you ever been to Holland? Gouryella smells, tastes and looks Dutch in every possible way.

This is irrelevant. Where the track comes from does not lend any credence to its affirmation in any way whatsoever. Though now that you talk about it, I never noticed that before........that the most gaudy, derivative trance anthems all come from Holland. heh. Well I'll be damned. That begs the hypothetical scenario: would the trance music scene be better off if we just got up and pushed the entire country into the sea?

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I could bet my life that a track like this would had never been made in a place like Kansas City or Vancouver or Rio de Janeiro.

Bullshit. I could write a COMPUTER PROGRAM that could churn out dutch trance anthems and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Pick your preset samplebanks for rhythm and percussion, key out your lead synth, randomize values for the anthem, apply filters, and let the sequencer take care of the rest. Voila: insta-anthem.

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You can even go back to colonial history and study how the Dutch preferred to import foreign cultures and incorporate universalist ideals into their very unique culture than to export a pure form of their own to the countries that they colonized.

Sure, but don't chalk that up to some kind of highly-evolved, altruistic moral code. The Dutch tried to export their culture--several times, in fact. But the truth is they had not the physical might to be imperialists like the British, French and Spaniards did and so, being largely controlled by their merchant classes, relegated themselves to trading and commerce instead. That foreign cultures were brought home and assimilated was a fancy byproduct, never a culprit of their expansionism.

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I always hated formulaic music

Then what are you doing listening to dutch trance?

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I loved how these producers were working within structure, which just seemed so natural to me as it was dance music.

Parnassian, huh? Guess what: they were wrong. They were just too stupid to realize it.

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The greatest common factor in this kind of music such as the melody and its harmonic backup are very minimal and arranged through a process that is subtle in its linear complexity.

Ahh yes, the ole "it's complicated because it's simple" argument. Trying to intellectualize simple concepts for acceptance by intelligentsia. Nice try. Looks good on paper, though. I have a more practical idea why this music exists: it makes lots of money. And it makes a lot of money because it is low-brow, easily-understood, deeply resonating music that caters to the lowest common denominator of trance consumers, they being the people who like to be amused by shiny, colourful things. It is not meant to be a work of art; by its very nature it is cheaply-produced pulp trance, exploiting a gimmick invented in 1996 that is well past its usefulness.

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Gouryella-Gouryella is a mindblowing piece of briliiantly constructed music as an artform

ha ha ha ha ha.

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I like a tastefully done breakdown like the one in Gouryella because it gives the music an extra edge in its linear development.

no it doesn't. In fact, it does the exact opposite: it kills the mood of the entire track

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I don't mind waiting for it because it is done with class and significant artistic value.

There is nothing classy or artistic about epic trance. Something that has artistic value would have to be multi-dimensional, unique, and have an almost raw, genuine sensibility to it. By contrast, epic trance is none of these things. It is drab, one-dimensional, trite and, at times, insulting our intelligence. Its problem is that it tries way too hard to appear sincere and genuine, but falls short of the mark. In effect, it is lying to us. It is fostering illusions about what it really is. It is fake. Like a plastic piece of shit watch trying to convince us it's a Rolex.

It is the musical equivalent of using big, obfuscating words in an effort to sound intelligent, but everybody knows you're just spouting bullshit.


(and with that said, I am done here. sorry for the threadjack)

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Originally posted by Ishkur This is irrelevant. Where the track comes from does not lend any credence to its affirmation in any way whatsoever. Though now that you talk about it, I never noticed that before........that the most gaudy, derivative trance anthems all come from Holland. heh. Well I'll be damned. That begs the hypothetical scenario: would the trance music scene be better off if we just got up and pushed the entire country into the sea? Bullshit. I could write a COMPUTER PROGRAM that could churn out dutch trance anthems and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Pick your preset samplebanks for rhythm and percussion, key out your lead synth, randomize values for the anthem, apply filters, and let the sequencer take care of the rest. Voila: insta-anthem.

But i WOULD be able to tell the difference. Just as it sounds obvious to me that Adam Freeland is Australian, that Gabriel and Dresden are American, and that Paul van Dyk is German. Gouryella is as Dutch as Afrika Bambataa is from the Bronx. Many producers have followed that formula template and have raped it to death, in Holland and elsewhere, true, but within the structural limits there is genius like Gouryella was 5 years ago. You said that the only reason that you didn't like it was the breakdown, therefore you're admitting that it had great production value other than its structure right? I insist that the whole structure thing has a sociocultural foundation, you might not care about it or you might not understand its subtleties, but it is there with its own value.

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Sure, but don't chalk that up to some kind of highly-evolved, altruistic moral code. The Dutch tried to export their culture--several times, in fact. But the truth is they had not the physical might to be imperialists like the British, French and Spaniards did and so, being largely controlled by their merchant classes, relegated themselves to trading and commerce instead. That foreign cultures were brought home and assimilated was a fancy byproduct, never a culprit of their expansionism.

Not just because of their lack of might, but also due to the Dutch social order of the three pillars, where the diverse political and religious strata had to learn to live with each other in a climate of tolerance. But that's irrelevant here, lol....

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Then what are you doing listening to dutch trance?

I just like good music.

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Parnassian, huh? Guess what: they were wrong. They were just too stupid to realize it.

No, it's the eternal model of European dance music since the Enlightenment. Hence the lack of funk and flavor, for people that don't have circular rhythm in their nature.

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Ahh yes, the ole "it's complicated because it's simple" argument. Trying to intellectualize simple concepts for acceptance by intelligentsia. Nice try. Looks good on paper, though. I have a more practical idea why this music exists: it makes lots of money. And it makes a lot of money because it is low-brow, easily-understood, deeply resonating music that caters to the lowest common denominator of trance consumers, they being the people who like to be amused by shiny, colourful things. It is not meant to be a work of art; by its very nature it is cheaply-produced pulp trance, exploiting a gimmick invented in 1996 that is well past its usefulness.

A lot of the music in this genre does exist because it makes a lot of money by being lowbrow and gimmicky, true. But when the genre (with the formula) arose in Germany and was imported by Holland in the second half of the nineties these were not the converging factors. Sven Vath, Cosmic Baby, and even PvD were part of an avant garde that was damn innovative back in the day(around 93). Then in Holland this music had a profound impact on a progressive elite of musically trained scenesters. Ask someone like Gert Huinink. Even to this day, European music conservatories are birthplaces for innovation in trancedom, like the Italian duo Nu NRG (which i'm not particularly fond of its bleeding synths and all, but it does have its value).

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no it doesn't. In fact, it does the exact opposite: it kills the mood of the entire track

It kills the mood for YOU. You talk about music as if it were a science or a sport that you can empiricize and declare absolute truths. As I said, there are sociocultural value that alter appreciation from a wide gamma of perspectives.

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There is nothing classy or artistic about epic trance. Something that has artistic value would have to be multi-dimensional, unique, and have an almost raw, genuine sensibility to it. By contrast, epic trance is none of these things. It is drab, one-dimensional, trite and, at times, insulting our intelligence. Its problem is that it tries way too hard to appear sincere and genuine, but falls short of the mark. In effect, it is lying to us. It is fostering illusions about what it really is. It is fake. Like a plastic piece of shit watch trying to convince us it's a Rolex.

For me, there is epic trance that is multi-dimensional, unique, and with an almost raw, genuine sensibility to it. There is also epic trance that is drab, one-dimensional, trite and insulting our intelligence. I also think that the traditional formula is dead and we are experiencing a new process of transculturation in trance right now, which is expanding its sonic landscape and structural possibilities. But hey, this just my personal appreciation. There is no truth.

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It is the musical equivalent of using big, obfuscating words in an effort to sound intelligent, but everybody knows you're just spouting bullshit.

I'm just being sincere. I'm not making anything up. The music speaks for itself though, if you don't like it then just let the trance crackers be.

Pio aka Yale vs Ishkur

Both have great points.....GREAT conversation, much better then seeing you suck, i suck, blow me etc etc...or the infamous prog rules you know nothing....

Great read on both parts.....

But when you really break it down...music is subjective...plain and simple....

Like what you like....if it matters what the person next to you considers good, well then you are not listening for the right reasons...but eh what do i know.

Ishkur: you made me curious, tell me what (recent) tracks you really like and why.

Although I'm on vacation, i just had to post here Sorry for the long post, but this thread is very interesting indeed.

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Originally posted by tiesto14 But when you really break it down...music is subjective...plain and simple...

True. Music is as subjective as any other form of art (painting, cinema, writing ...) but keep in mind that it's got an origin (everything comes from something else) and an impact (what changes did that piece of art bring?). This is what we're discussing about here: what caused the birth of epic trance and what's its impact on the electronic music scene. I realise this is also subjective, but it's something that should be discussed in order to compare ideas and look for new ways to develop music (either if you're a musician or a critic).

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Originally posted by tiesto14 Like what you like....if it matters what the person next to you considers good, well then you are not listening for the right reasons...

I think it's extremely important to check other peoples' point of view. Everybody's got a different point of view of life because we've all been through different experiences and often people see things we don't see. It's not a matter of changing your taste, but rather not being narrow-minded and trying to see things from another angle.

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Originally posted by YaleTrance What I'm talking about is sociocultural values that people utilize when appreciating music. (...) These restricting concepts (strict notions of structure and tonality) are very Western and unlike most edm and pop music from contemporary times, it also causes the music to lack any funk or soul.

Well, these restricting concepts are not particularly Western, but rather something that is part of any conservative group. That's how genres are born: first, there's an original genre. It's got its rules, structure and motifs. Then, a dissident group starts to change some aspects and slowly create a newer sound. Often, purists are against this new genre and the enthusiasts who created these modifications drift apart from their original genre, creating a new one, which explores these new characteristics that keep them together. This egocentric and megalomaniac attitude leads to an eventual saturation, which causes new dissidents to change whatever has been over-used and create yet another genre.

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Originally posted by YaleTrance Have you ever been to Holland? Gouryella smells, tastes and looks Dutch in every possible way. The melody, the harmonic pattern, the structure, the bassline, the buildup, the breakdown: All the components of the track are based on a Dutch ethos in the context of globalization and European integration.

I'm sincerely interested in understanding more about it. I reckon that enviroment is essential for the creation of art, but being an outsider, there's no way I can understand it. Even though I live in a society that has been influenced by the Dutch invasions a long time ago (my accent still has traces from flemmish), and that is a blending of cultures all over the world (not only because of colonisation, but because we have a huge amount of foreigners in my city), I still find epic trance extremely Central-European, with its roots essentially linked to European classical music and German early trance.

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Originally posted by YaleTrance I could really go into detail explaining how the process that led to what you now call epic or anthem or whatever is based on very Dutch ideals adapted from what they imported from Europe and the world (the universal mvt. spawned by Detroit-Chicago-acid house-UK's second summer of love-german trance-the goa influence etc)

I'm looking forward to reading that
(It's not in that article you wrote, in which you used my map, is it? It was an interesting piece of work, but since I read it a long time ago, I'm bound to forget things)

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Originally posted by YaleTrance I always hated formulaic music, I never understood rock or pop

Rock is not formulaic: although you have a wider range of opportunities with electronic music, it doesn't mean there's no evolution in music that don't use such features. Otherwise, why would rock have so many sub-genres?

Same for pop (which is often a form of electronic music, but with a different purpose), hip hop (which is yet another form of electronic music) and any other genre that doesn't need computers to exist.

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Originally posted by YaleTrance I like a tastefully done breakdown like the one in Gouryella because it gives the music an extra edge in its linear development. I don't mind waiting for it because it is done with class and significant artistic value. Since my main concern is with music and not dancing, I don't have a problem with it taking so long.

The problem with epic and anthem trance nowadays is that it's been raped by its own formula: the over-use of epic tracks in a live set led to a competition for what track would be reminded by listeners. This led to a megalomaniac and competitive behaviour from producers (Tijs included), while the goal of dancing music is making people dance (which seems to have been forgotten).

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Originally posted by colonelcrisp electronic music is only about 20 years old

No it's not. Study the history of electronic music and you'll find out it's older than you imagine. Even disco was created more than 20 years ago.

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Originally posted by colonelcrisp Classics are and will always be personal to the individual

Classics are not personal, but part of history. Dance2trance's "We come in Peace" is a classic, because it was a very important tune for the development of trance, and it will always be, you like it or not. System F's Exhale and Rank 1's Airwave are not: they didn't add anything to the history of electronic music, did they? Don't confuse classics with favourites...

I like Exhale, but I'm completely aware that it's no classic.

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Originally posted by paranoik0 I just didn't understand one thing: if they're all the same cheesy crap, why divide in two categories?

Because it's not about quality, but about characteristics. Epic trance is more laid back and anthem is more hands-in-the-air.

Simple, innit? That's why Ian Van Dahl's Castle in the Sky is epic trance too.

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Originally posted by whiskers what do hippies have to do with goa being a bad genre?

Ishkur seem to have skipped this one, so I'm hijacking the question

Easily: elitism and the motifs. The music is great, but the "xamanism", as they call it, is unbearable. Music is not about fun anymore; it's something sacred that can't be mixed with anything else in order to keep its purity. I like goa trance, but being forced to listen to it for 3 days non-stop is bloody annoying (there are festivals that are this long, playing exclusively goa and psy trance).

The music is good though.

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Originally posted by Ishkur There is nothing classy or artistic about epic trance. Something that has artistic value would have to be multi-dimensional, unique, and have an almost raw, genuine sensibility to it. By contrast, epic trance is none of these things. It is drab, one-dimensional, trite and, at times, insulting our intelligence

The essence of it is classy. Within its concepts, it is artistic. You already know my opinion about it (that it's more about what has been done to the genre than what the genre really is) and my analogy to Parnassian (and we seem to agree), so it's a bit pointless to keep quoting you.

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Originally posted by Ishkur Not that anyone left has any taste worth changing.

One last thing: you can't change people's tastes, but you can show them your opinion, so they can agree or not You need to be subtle sometimes though, whenever their opinion is too strong and blinding them from seeing that there can be a different truth.

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Originally posted by Peter Campbell I think trance needs to go back to 1995, back when it was real, cause today its just not "trance"

Although I got what you mean (and wholeheartedly agree), instead of going back to 1995, I'd rather say it's got to move on to 2003/2004, instead of being stuck in 1999.

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Originally posted by mezzir

Stupidity is in the mind of the beholder: what seems stupid to you might not be as stupid as you think This thread would be stupid if it were a bunch of insults with no foundation.

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Originally posted by Trancegiant Creativity within a clear formula/frame?

Yes, there can be.

The purpose of art is to bring new ways to express yourself, always pushing the limits. There always is a way to develop things, even within the epic trance formula, but this is mainly a hit and miss thing. If today we think that it's miss, we should sit back and analyse what's gone wrong. Fix it and move on.

Honestly, I wish producers could see it rather than just keep changing melodies using the same formula. It's blatantly pointless to do something other people have already done. Obviously, everything comes from something else, but this is not an excuse to cease evolution.

Probably my longest post ever, but this is worth debating.

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Indiana Clones Upcoming Sets
[ I May Upload Something Someday ]

Last edited by Lira on Nov-03-2003 at 22:33

Thanks for your reply Maaz, you've enlightened me
Ishkur can learn from what you've written.

Despite feeling literally crushed by the vastness of knowledge some of the previous posters here, I feel somehow inclined to present my opinion. That is, the opinion of somebody who knows next to nothing about classical music or history, and hasn't obfusicated this music into the "intent" of it's creation and such. Up until reading this I really listened to this music for a sole reason; to enjoy it. I didn't care where it came from, who produced it, what the intent was, at least, not beyond a very pedantic scope.

To me, Ishkur's statement that the entire genre of trance and it's subsets is pure rubbish strike me as absurd. He preaches on and on about how trite and pretentious the formulaic cookie cutter trance is, which seems to me, to be missing the intrinsic point that nearly all electronic music sets itself within a 'rigid' structure. You can easily capitalise on the point that epic and anthem trance take this to an extreme, and I primarily agree it's obvious, nobody is trying to hide it. However, I think it is *very* misleading to say the least, to suggest that all of the trance world is heading off the deep end to perpetual inanity.

Sasha - Airdrawndagger
James Holden - Balance 005
John Digweeed - Stark Raving Mad (official movie soundtrack?)
Sander Kleinenbergs work
Harry Lemon's work
Leama & Moore's work

these are all, good examples in my opinion of "creativity" within the "insipid" fingers of trance. I realize they aren't exactly within the strict definition of trance you are talking about, but there is definetely some influence in all of their work (even if they have now turned their back to the sound, or didn't really do any "trance" works (i.e. Harry Leemon, Sander K.). They are individuals/groups that have moved beyond the anthem/epic sound which you seem to hail as the "omega" of trance.

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Venus: And there are troops of savage giraffes whose necks are on fire, like the starry ejaculations of fireworks in the very pale sky of childhood ... Venus: Enter, enter here - men of all kinds and races, victims of reality! You who have the thirst for dreams. ... Venus: You, on life's bitter road, drenched in hard sunlight who have the thirst that once more the dark marvel of dreams...

Maaz basically just completed all my points for me. In some cases, he said it better than I could. I really have no more reason to be here.

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Ishkur: you made me curious, tell me what (recent) tracks you really like and why.

on my guide is a section called "Classic Trance". I look for music that sounds like that. Music that I can close my eyes to and just get lost in, when it feels like I've been there for a few minutes, and I open my eyes to check my watch, and realize I've been there for several hours. I like that.

I don't go to trance parties anymore. I haven't been to any raves or clubs in a long time, and there's hardly a single trance DJ on the planet that is barely worth paying anything to go see. I'd like to change this some day, but only if the music cleans up its act. That's why I can't really "respect your opinions" because your opinions are killing mine. I've got to fight this thing and spearhead a revolution back to respectable trance if I hope to jump back into the culture I love again. Until then, I remain in voluntary exile.

What trance do I listen to these days? I listen to a lot of Blue Amazon, actually. I like drifting trance like that. A smattering of other tracks on my list right now:

Zyon - No Fate (Struggle Continues Mix)
Castle Trancelott - Resonance (Spacepunks mix)
Spacepunks - Another Space (Pussy 2000 mix) <--- I really like that one
Steve Porter - Mindless
Orbital - Nothing left (breeder's mix) <--- god, I miss breeder
RR Workshop - Mess With Da Bull

Basically any trance that I have makes me forget about what's coming. That was kind of the point of electronic music in the first place, no? That it was repetitive because you were living for the NOW, what the track was doing right this moment. Not waiting for what it might do, or what it could do, or for some crescending climax to tell you what it's doing. Living, dancing, feeling for the moment.

thread closed already

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word 2 big bird!

Wow i am Amazed ish actually got flamed enough to post haha, poor bastard no wonder he hates trance so much now.

But if you think Ish has a harsh opinion on trance you havent seen shit, the people who were around before trance existed, the folks who listened to the original house tracks, who spin acid jazz, who spin techno,who have techno vinyls that are older than i am, those people often hate trance more than i have ever seen anyone hate anything, Ish was just around before the shit storm so whilst everyone has their tracks that they love to ish who has a far more trained ear it is all shit, cookie cutter shit, i must admit, i am stomaching trance less and less these days, my vinyl orders are shifting to techno, not for originality, but because i am starting to enjoy that more, Only song ish bashed that i enjoy is voyage but to each his own opinion, Ish knows far more than most of the posters on this site about electronic music, shit alot of the posters i see got into trance with songs like nothing but you, Trance has been on a slow downward decent much like a big heaping mass of shit sliding down a hill for years now, when you jump on is the "golden age" and after that it is comercial shit, The genre still has talent do not get me wrong, but you have to search for it. And sometimes the search just gets old. i remember the day when i got burnt out on epic trance, i simply couldnt listen to it any more, every song sounded the exact same, I am extactic ferry corsten is implementing electro elements now, I enjoyed his recent set, but all his productions for so long sounded exactly the fucking same, i swear it sounded like he didnt even change a fucking octave. I think my fav quote from this whole thread is when ish comented PvD didnt invent trance heh,nice blow there and it is so true. Now I dont see Eye to eye with ish, he has a few years on me thus a different opinion, but i laugh my ass off at his writings, I certainly see where he is coming from, and all you cookie cutter addicts have no right to bash him for being different in tastes merely because his tastes have refined with age. I think it is obvious that some of ish's hatred for trance has come from the scars of something he once loved being burnt down and destroyed, if anything we should lend him our sympathys for his lost love.

All in all i think i have seen what would really phucking own,
Minimal trance, not ambient but minimal, that would be so wicked. if I ever got the time to begin producing i think that would be an interesting angle to attempt to reach. I cant even fully imagine what the sound would be like jolz, but that would be quite awsome.

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Peace DigDug