Which is essential since the US government was founded on the idea of minority rule and keeping the power out of the majority to keep radical change in check.

quote:

What proposals have been made to change the Electoral College system? Reference sources indicate that over the past 200 years, over 700 proposals have been introduced in Congress to reform or eliminate the Electoral College. There have been more proposals for constitutional amendments on changing the Electoral College than on any other subject. The American Bar Association has criticized the Electoral College as "archaic" and "ambiguous" and in 1987, for instance, its polling showed 69 percent of lawyers favored abolishing it. On the other hand, surveys of political scientists have supported continuation of the Electoral College. But public opinion polls have shown Americans favored abolishing it by majorities of 58 percent in 1967; 81 percent in 1968; and 75 percent in 1981.

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US Goverment Website Again
(Sorry should of properly quoted it eariler)

"Americans favored abolishing it by majorities of 58 percent in 1967; 81 percent in 1968; and 75 percent in 1981." <<<< Now if thats not undemocratic what is? "We know better than the people what they want" "Yep they want to change the way their political system operates........ we gonna change it?.......nah"

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Last edited by Dervish on Apr-09-2004 at 08:52

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Originally posted by Dervish Yes but thier votes don't directly vote for the president. Edit: Also is a system where this happens not a bit ludacrus? "The Supreme Court has held that the Constitution does not require that electors be completely free to act as they choose and therefore, political parties may extract pledges from electors to vote for the parties' nominees. Some state laws provide that so-called "faithless electors" may be subject to fines or may be disqualified for casting an invalid vote and be replaced by a substitute elector. The Supreme Court has not specifically ruled on the question of whether pledges and penalties for failure to vote as pledged may be enforced under the Constitution. No elector has ever been prosecuted for failing to vote as pledged." So depending on which state you vote in your vote will effectivly be delt with differntly. And the "voter"(college I mean) might not have a choice. <<< Now that is dumb. Sorry by voter I mean elector.

Well I'm not completely sure of your argument, bud doesn't it make sense that electors of the electoral college are not completely "free" to act as they choose since they are BOUND by the public majroity vote to vote as the majority intended?

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Originally posted by occrider Well I'm not completely sure of your argument, bud doesn't it make sense that electors of the electoral college are not completely "free" to act as they choose since they are BOUND by the public majroity vote to vote as the majority intended?

Well thats the thing half are half arn't.

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quote:

Originally posted by Dervish Well thats the thing half are half arn't.

I'm still confused What's your argument in its entirety?

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Retro ...

(This isn't America bashing btw just an exploration of the system and a discussion) This part of my problem with the system is that 24 states electors are *bound* and the rest arn't. Why should your vote be treated differntly in this case? I understand differnt states have diffent laws and so on but in this matter since it's being applied to the election of the president why arn't they all the same?

Edit: I also know that 99% of the time they do vote the way they are ment to. It's just the princible of it.

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Last edited by Dervish on Apr-09-2004 at 08:53

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Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 But, if you want "sources" The declaration of independence,the constitution.... That's what makes America more free

Documents which were written hundreds of years ago allow you to conclude, not only that America is free, but even that America is more free than Europe??? It was some really clever guys who wrote those papers I must say: They must have predicted perfectly well how the European countries would be governed in the year 2004. Quite a feat!

Frankly I'm a bit surprised why you post in the political forum. Your arguments vary in quality from bad to totally ridiculous - and people point that out to you again and again. And it is not because you simply just like to argue (whatever your abilities in that area may be) - because when you are presented with counterarguments you simply ignore them and stay out of the thread. So what is your motivation?

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Originally posted by FuzzyGreen I've taken college courses in US History, world history, and Poly-sci. I'm not an english major and never will be, but I do know quite a lot about the American system of government and that it's not as shitty as everyone makes it out to be.

That may be. But what do you know about European countries? You are saying that the US system of governance is *better* than European ones - a conclusion that can only be drawn by somebody who has deep insight into both systems.

And, please, do not argue by the "I've taken courses/degrees"-route. I'm studying for a phd and has taken courses in, amongst other things, technology and society. As my degree is on a higher level than that of yours, would that allow me to say that the US have a worse healthcare system than we have in Europe?
No, I would have to come up with arguments. And so do you. Simply telling St. Andrew to "study in the US for a year" is really lousy argumentation technique.

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 It doesn't take much to know that America is more free than Europe. But, if you want "sources" The declaration of independence,the constitution.... That's what makes America more free

What the? (part two!)

I'm sorry to break it to you, but there are numerous things going on today in the US that are in direct violation of the constitution, specifically the establishment clause and the first amendment (I believe the two are different - correct me if I'm wrong).

Your entire argument relies on the assumption that because the constitution says something, it actually happens. Sadly, that isn't the case. You need to look at freedom in practice rather than in theory.

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Originally posted by arctic You need to look at freedom in practice rather than in theory.

Exactly. I know I said it before but it's a good example. The way black people were treated earlier on. Everybody still sang "the land of the free" when black people wern't treated as equals.

I won't claim to know all the intracracys of the constituion but another example is the current gun laws. The little quote the NRA come out with is actually refering to what the "local millita" are allowed to do not Joe Public. So in effect the current gun laws are in conflict with the constitution.

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quote:

Originally posted by FuzzyGreen If you had any actual knowledge about the American form of government you would see that the US constitution and Bill of rights covers this perfectly.

Perfectly, eh? That's why you have KKK guys and neo-nazi organizations roaming around freely, yet you raise such a fuss and decide to censor superbowl transmisions when Janet Jackson shows her tit?

And just FYI I've been living in the states for a few years, so I do have enough knowledge about the american form of government.

quote:

No, plain and simple America has the best doctors, the best medicine, and the best technology. Why? Because it's form of goverment creates the opurtunity for the most powerfull companies, technologies, and industries that can ever be created. I am fine with my low taxes(compared to european taxes) and top of the line health care for my family, thank you.

Actually it's because of the 1st and especially 2nd world war. Prior to those wars the US was a not very powerful agricultural country. Only after those wars ruined most of european economy and industry did the US manage to become on par with european nations industry-wise and it became a superpower on the bases of providing handful loans to the allies which they had to pay back later on.

And to Nellie:
I don't know if you didn't realize this, but most european countries do have their own constitutions as well. Keep in mind that when people are talking about Europe being freer than the US, they are talking about western Europe (France, Benelux, Scandinavia, Germany), and not about eastern europe countries like Moldavia or Serbia. We're all well aware that many european countries do not have nearly the same amount of civil liberties as the US, but the countries which make up the EU are in many cases better organized.

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quote:

Originally posted by Dervish Firstly wheres your evidence?

http://www.thegully.com/essays/cuba...AIDS_stern.html
http://www.thegully.com/essays/cuba..._AIDS_gays.html
http://www.aegis.com/news/mh/1991/MH911107.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3154803.stm
http://www.unitycoalition.org/AidsinCuba.doc
http://www.aguabuena.org/ingles/art.../cubafisrt.html
http://www.iaen.org/limelette/html/lim05.htm

I can go on and on for days.... Yes Aids patients get free treatment (assuming there are drugs available) but they are basically forced into AIDS sanatariums.

I'm not saying it doesn't work, but it's not exactly what I would call humane.