quote:

Originally posted by disko-kandi hey! fine u guys. go over my head! LOL! ...i'll post more later. i gotta go and chill. this is way to stressful for a beautiful sat. nite.

Silke, I'm not sure what your point is with the article. I have never contested that immigrants have ample opportunity to succeed in Canada, especially if they come here at a young age. Didn't mean to ignore you, just didn't have any comments.

DJ Smitty, listen, I don't want to offend you, so I'm not going to respond to your comments any longer because we're obviously not even on the same wavelength here. Sorry, I just don't see any chance of the conversation going anywhere productive.

As for DigiNut, I'm confused. Exactly what "special" treatment are minorities receiving in canada? I am not aware of any such things, so educate me. The whole "affirmative action" thing is really just a U.S. thing, I'm not aware of any official such laws here, are there? The problems in some European countries are quite different as is the social make-up and structure, not to mention they are not immigration-based countries. So it's not logical to apply those situations directly to Canada.

Any I don't agree with you that multiculturalism has been shown not to work. I don't buy the European example. I think it's working just fine here in Canada, better than anywhere else. Would you rather have a melting pot scenario as in the U.S.? You couldn't possibly think that's working better. The tensions and racial isolation is much worse there.

quote:

Originally posted by Arcticboy The whole "affirmative action" thing is really just a U.S. thing, I'm not aware of any official such laws here, are there? The problems in some European countries are quite different as is the social make-up and structure, not to mention they are not immigration-based countries. So it's not logical to apply those situations directly to Canada. Any I don't agree with you that multiculturalism has been shown not to work. I don't buy the European example. I think it's working just fine here in Canada, better than anywhere else. Would you rather have a melting pot scenario as in the U.S.? You couldn't possibly think that's working better. The tensions and racial isolation is much worse there.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Don't reply if you wish...but at least know that you're incorrect on a few things. Affirmative action was first put in place by Nixon in the 70s I believe, but was mainly designed to accomodate African Americans. As for Canada, I think it was the NDP who put employment equity in place in the early 90s, but has since been removed. However, the policy, specifically in Ontario, is still widely in effect. Employers, feeling the need to avoid bad publicity and possibly court cases, hire enough minorities and women to basically shut them up. The most obvious cases are police and firemen as I said in an earlier post. Of course, we could get into a whole discussion about how an RCMP officer of Sikh descent, fought and won a court battle to have the right to wear his turban while on duty and there is the issue of ceremonial daggers by Sikh children in school.

How are European countries different? They are facing the same problems we are...A LOW BIRTH RATE. Germany is a great example...they let in hordes of Turks to fill employment every year. The result is that by 2040, it is estimated that less than half the population will be of German descent. I think it quite reasonable that the German government, in an attempt to protect their culture, is trying to fix their problem by limiting immigration, encouraging natural popluation growth and possibly deporting immigrants. Canada is in the same situation, though not as drastic.

You might think it's working fine here...many people do not. I have a lot of problems with Americans and their government, but at least they are PROUD TO BE AMERICAN. They don't tear up their history because it contains a few bad spots (Indians and slavery) but many Canadians (including whites) rejoice in doing so. A perfect example is my friend...born here to Greek parents. Of course, he thinks of himself as Greek, not Canadian. "it's about the blood after all" he says. I know so many minorities like that...even though they are born here and can't speak their hertiage's language, they don't feel proud to be Canadian. That's insulting to me...my dad and his line are English...and while I'm proud to be of that descent, I'm Canadian first and always. It all goes back to the respect issue....having multiculturalism allows people to feel they don't have to be Canadian. The result is that we have a very FRACTURED society with people always bitching about something.

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"No offense, but you're stupid"

quote:

Originally posted by Arcticboy Silke, I'm not sure what your point is with the article. I have never contested that immigrants have ample opportunity to succeed in Canada, especially if they come here at a young age. Didn't mean to ignore you, just didn't have any comments.

the article is on neutral ground. it was merely in a think piece. nothing more, nothing less to this discussion. i just thought it was interesting and kind of related to what we're talking about. c'est tout!

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life's too short~simply do!

quote:

Originally posted by Arcticboy As for DigiNut, I'm confused. Exactly what "special" treatment are minorities receiving in canada? I am not aware of any such things, so educate me. The whole "affirmative action" thing is really just a U.S. thing, I'm not aware of any official such laws here, are there? The problems in some European countries are quite different as is the social make-up and structure, not to mention they are not immigration-based countries. So it's not logical to apply those situations directly to Canada.

A few off the top of my head:
- University admissions quotas
- Immigration policies such as refugee status
- Various employment policies specifically geared to what you yourself said earlier (having a statistical employee breakdown equivalent to Canada's overall population breakdown in terms of race, but nothing else). For example, the CBC policy: "As the country's public broadcaster, we must reflect the diversity of Canadian society in our workforce and on our airwaves."

There are many more, but you can hardly expect me to scour corporate, government, and academic literature solely in order to provide foundation for YOUR argument.

quote:

Any I don't agree with you that multiculturalism has been shown not to work. I don't buy the European example. I think it's working just fine here in Canada, better than anywhere else. Would you rather have a melting pot scenario as in the U.S.? You couldn't possibly think that's working better. The tensions and racial isolation is much worse there.

Every single point here is unsubstantiated.

Why don't you "buy" the European example?

What makes you think it's working "fine" here in Canada, despite numerous scathing criticisms from people who have done actual research? (read Neil Bissoondath's Selling Illusions: The Cult of Multiculturalism in Canada for an excellent example specific to Canada, or Roger Sandall's The Culture Cult for a more scholarly but also more general example).

What makes you think that racial isolation is worse in the U.S.? (Racism, perhaps, is more prevalent, but certainly not the type of racial isolationism you see here in Canada, and "stereotypical" culture is far more prevalent in Canada specifically because of the ethnic conformity I mentioned above).

Indeed I DO think that the "melting pot" is a much better paradigm. I favour integration over assimilation, but I also favour both of those over segregation. Canadian politicians have been drumming the multiculturalism beat for years insisting that multiculturalist policies are integrationist, but a few elementary lessons in history (and economics) should set aside any doubts that they are actually isolationist. The USA's "melting pot" is culturally destructive but at least it doesn't tear away at the national identity and economy and promote unfair and unjust national policies.

It's the classic "theory vs practice" problem that destroyed the communist countries. And it shouldn't be surprising that multiculturalism spawned off of communism, but that's another story altogether - the fact is, multiculturalism is one of those "nice", idealistic policies that sounds great in theory but just doesn't, and CAN'T, work in practice.

___________________
My party schedule:
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2048-06-66 - Spastic & Whocares ¶ Although I'm Actually Flattered
9999-45-81 - Tweaker Gimp ☼ I Probably Won't Even Go To This But I Have To Make Sure I Fill Up All The Available Space Here

As for the race questions on a university application. Isnt it funny that 40 years ago it would have been minority rights groups fighting to have this abolished. 40 years later it's the minority rights groups that want it!

That was the point of why i started the thread in the first place. 40 years ago minorities wanted true equality and today they want dominence. Its just not right.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 That was the point of why i started the thread in the first place. 40 years ago minorities wanted true equality and today they want dominence. Its just not right.

where do you get that argument from? can you back that up? i'd be interested. ...which minorities are you talking about?

dominance....i'm not so sure if that's quite right, or even the right word.

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life's too short~simply do!

Its not dominance that anyone is looking for, its equality. Moved to Canada about 6 years ago. love this country, got the opportunities that I might not get where I was born. I am a Canadian citizen, I have the same rights as anyone, but when it comes to getting the opportunities like anyone else I do not get the chance. I speak English fluently I mingle in the same crowds but my name or my back ground always hinders the upper management to hire me. Why is that? Because its perception. I work for a big financial organization in TO. You will see a lot of minorities in the lower level jobs (mainly sales) but the higher you go the ratio drops. Why? because its the big boys group. that is why affirmative action should be applied in certain places. Its needed, the qualifications match the person can do the job, but guess what he doesn’t play golf or he did not go this university or doesn’t live in that neighborhood. so lets put his resume aside. None the less, this is a great place to live , I AM CANADIAN, but I and a lot of people like me have to fight harder to get anywhere.

P.S Trance RULES!!!!!!!!

Where do i get that from? Well it happens to be that 40 years ago yesterday was the landmark decision called Brown vs the board of education which legally desegregated schools. A joyous day for minority rights. Now we have minorities who actually WANT forms of segregation because its adventagious to them now.

As for the reason why minorites are shut out of the higher management? 2 theories. One is that climbing that ladder doesnt happen overnight. Most immigrants have arrived in the last 20 years. It takes decades of ladder climbing to get to the top of a company. Look at women for example. There are now countless women CEOs in this country and women members of parliament and we even had a women as prime minister. In BC an indian born person was premier. I dont think minorities have it so bad here. Getting to the top is all about social connections and "who you know" and not nec about qualification. Minorities will eventually get there too as will i (LOL).... just give it some time.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut - Immigration policies such as refugee status

that's not special treatment - it's a RIGHT to protection that each and every human being on this planet is entitled to!

___________________
life's too short~simply do!

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 Brown vs the board of education which legally desegregated schools. A joyous day for minority rights. Now we have minorities who actually WANT forms of segregation because its adventagious to them now.

where can i read up on this case?

___________________
life's too short~simply do!

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut A few off the top of my head: - University admissions quotas - Immigration policies such as refugee status - Various employment policies specifically geared to what you yourself said earlier (having a statistical employee breakdown equivalent to Canada's overall population breakdown in terms of race, but nothing else). For example, the CBC policy: "As the country's public broadcaster, we must reflect the diversity of Canadian society in our workforce and on our airwaves." There are many more, but you can hardly expect me to scour corporate, government, and academic literature solely in order to provide foundation for YOUR argument.

Disko-kandi already responded to the refugee comment, that just has nothing to do with affirmative action, so I won't go there.

As for the other examples you give, none of these are enforced by LAW. They are policies taken by the governing bodies of the organisations involved, because apparently they had the same debate we've had in this thread and decided it was a good idea. If there is racial "affirmative action" legislation in Canada, I'd be happy to retract my statement if you provide references. Now, do you suggest we have legislation forbidding any organisations from such policies?

Any legal remedy in this area for minorities comes from the human rights code under which they could challenge being over-looked if they could provide proof that they were qualified for a position and didn't get it based on race. The same remedy is available to any white person feeling that they have been wrong done, so what's the problem?

As for the employment equity issue mentioned by Smitty, any employment equity laws in Canada that I'm aware of have to do with women getting paid equally for equal work. Basic common sense. Employment equity legislation DOES NOT refer to the ratio of women or racial minorities hired, but again I'd be happy to take that back if you give me references to the contrary.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Why don't you "buy" the European example?

Because you didn't give any clear references when you claimed that "it's been proven over and over" and you didn't really show how a specific example applies to Canada.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut What makes you think it's working "fine" here in Canada, despite numerous scathing criticisms from people who have done actual research?

I have not read these books, so I can not comment on them. I'd be interested in seeing what kind of "research" they did.

I did not say that things are perfect in Canada, but that I don't know any example in the world that's better. I have lived in Iran, in Europe, in the U.S., and in Canada, and I have travelled extensively especially in Europe and the U.S. Despite our problems, Canada is the best working example I've seen reflecting the reality of the world, that borders can not last forever now that we have the ability to cross the glove in a few hours in a plane, not to mention the electronic highways that instantly connect all corners of the globe.

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut What makes you think that racial isolation is worse in the U.S.? (Racism, perhaps, is more prevalent, but certainly not the type of racial isolationism you see here in Canada, and "stereotypical" culture is far more prevalent in Canada specifically because of the ethnic conformity I mentioned above). Indeed I DO think that the "melting pot" is a much better paradigm. I favour integration over assimilation, but I also favour both of those over segregation. Canadian politicians have been drumming the multiculturalism beat for years insisting that multiculturalist policies are integrationist, but a few elementary lessons in history (and economics) should set aside any doubts that they are actually isolationist. The USA's "melting pot" is culturally destructive but at least it doesn't tear away at the national identity and economy and promote unfair and unjust national policies.

How can you simply separat the prevalence of racism in the U.S. from their policies on racial assimilation? You just can't pick and choose what you like about another country, these things are all interconnected. That's why I say Canada is the best overall working example.

As for racial TENSION being worse in the States (I never said isolation), again, I've seen it personally. Hell, I could give many examples, but off the top of my head, do you remember the nasty L.A. riot after the Rodney Kind beating? Enough said.

You talk about losing the national identity. What identity? Canada is a young country and it's culture and national identity formed by people who've immigrated here. First it was the "white" races including the English, Frence, German, Dutch, Ukranian, etc. Then the many other races. Unlike some European countries where they might have a more legitimate concern with losing their "identity" (which is just fear of the unknown and inevitable eventual unification of he world), you can't tell me that such a concern in Canada is truly valid. Again, if anyone has the right to claim a certain identity as the true Canadian one that should be preserved, it's the Natives (aka Aboriginal People).

Plus, you think Americans are preserving their "identity"? They are preserving their ignorance. Yes, many there are "proud to be American" but they don't even know why, because they don't know anything else. That's how the powerful people who run the country and exploit the working people like it. We've all seen recently what the blind "American Pride" can do and has done to the world, so don't even get me started there.