The debate is over.

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Heh, sorry I've only skimmed through the thread and maybe somebody brought this up before.

As a counterpoint to the notion that Reagan was the sole reason USSR fell apart (and in extension communism), what about the struggle by the people of the various Sovjet satellite states, such as Poland and Czechoslovakia? Somehow I'm pretty sure they must have been an integral part of the demise of the Sovjet imperium.

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Kinda goofy IMO, but whatever floats your boat...

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Kinda goofy IMO, but whatever floats your boat...

I assume that was directed at me.

I don't think it's that goofy really. Especially not if you consider Czechoslovakia and it's student revolt in Prague with frontman Vaclav Havel, who later became the first demokratic president. After the communist regime did a harsh clamp down on students the whole anti-communist movement got toa boiling point. This was called the Velvet revoultion because it was basically a non-violent revolution and very few, if any, got phsyically hurt.

I honestly don't think Reagan had much to do with that. It was the fault of the communist government and the hard work of thousands of rather brave individuals who dared to stand up against the regime.

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quote:

Originally posted by Dj_Irish I assume that was directed at me.

No, no, not at all. I meant having a huge convoy of people walk past a coffin seems a bit goofy to me.

I totally agree that internal factors had more to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union than anything Reagan did.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter No, no, not at all. I meant having a huge convoy of people walk past a coffin seems a bit goofy to me. I totally agree that internal factors had more to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union than anything Reagan did.

ah ok

and then I actually agree on your statement, since it's almost an tourist attraction at this point. Might as well raise a maosuleum hehe. That would be ironic :P

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quote:

Originally posted by Dj_Irish Heh, sorry I've only skimmed through the thread and maybe somebody brought this up before. As a counterpoint to the notion that Reagan was the sole reason USSR fell apart (and in extension communism), what about the struggle by the people of the various Sovjet satellite states, such as Poland and Czechoslovakia? Somehow I'm pretty sure they must have been an integral part of the demise of the Sovjet imperium.

Exactly. Reagan did not single-handedly end the Cold War, however he played a big part in bringing it to an end.

The whole week felt like a Republican publicity stunt to out do Kennedy's funeral, the only thing missing was a Bush/Cheney reelection sticker on the casket. Concluding with a funeral with the entire press core snapping pictures of Nancy like the paparazzi do on Oscar night. I was expecting to see a coffin cam for a close up to add to the emotional impact and reporter to get her reaction and ask what she's going to do in the second half. Whole event was rather disgraceful.

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She didn't think it was disgraceful and many times thanked everyone for their support. She is the only one that can determine that, not a democrat nazi that thinks everything is a republican conspiracy to get power. She requested the state funeral, she could have refused it like Nixon's family did. The event seemed long because state funerals last 7 days, that is the routine. Did you honestly expect it to not be shown on the major news channels? You act like he died on purpose just to help Bush get re-elected, oh wait maybe Bush had men secretly kill him so that he can get sympathy. What a load of shit.

Geez people can't a man just die in peace, let the nation honor him if they so choose and life goes on. Does everything have to be a political stunt, ploy, or agenda. I dislike George Bush as the next guy but republican politics and November elections have nothing to do with Reagan's death and the national hommage paid to him.

As for the issue of Eastern Europe and communism in relation to Reagan's influence, maybe if you lived there and understand the system and what it meant versus the Western European and American freedoms as witnessed by the existence of the Berlin Wall itself then there might be an appreciation for Reagan and his attitudes about communism and bankrupting the Soviets defence spending into oblivion. The less money the Soviets had the more difficult it was to ensure that they could lend support to the respective governments of Eastern Europe to maintain social control continuously against the rising tide of public revolts. Reagan didn't end communism singlehandedly but he sure did give it a good asskicking at every opportunity, the Eastern Europeans did the job in the end.

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My thoughts on this thread:


1) The argument about showing Regan's funeral - a person who is remembered as a public servant - to the public is ridicilous.

2) The argument about showing servicemen's funerals is as equally ridicilous. I have seen at least two "flag-drapped" funerals of Houston-men who had died in service of their country in Iraq on the local TV.

Those that argue that these funerals have some negative effect and are therefore censored by the government, how do you respond to that? TV broadcast of the funerals of Texan serviceman by Texan media - probably some of the most right-wing media you can find in the nation.

It is not the "right" that is censoring these funerals, it is the left. Do you see similar funerals on your local stations in California and New York?

Military funerals are not censored. I am sure if the family wishes the media will not be there, they will try and respect. This is not the case however. I have never heard of a case where the family has asked the media to leave and they were still there. Same goes for the funeral of Regan - if the Regans would have wished it not to have been televised, it wouldn't have been.

So if we want to start playing politics.. you might want to question your assumptions further.


3) Regan did help bring down the fall of the soviet union. True the Soviet Union would have fallen sooner or later, but because of Regan it fell sooner. For all we know the whole empire could have lasted twenty even fifty more years without him. Regan put the pressure on the soviet union - He was the first president to put the financial and moral pressure on the Union, which lead to its demise.

He termed them "evil empire" - this phrasing did much to help the uprising in Eastern Europe. Regan operated against common western European sympathies at the time and helped increase funding of Radio free Europe, and helped arm the uprising - actions all his predeccsors refused to do in hopes of not angering the Russians.
DJ_Irish, you will hear many of the Eastern Europeans leaders who lead the uprising sing great praise of Regan. I've heard one such leader in an interview who said that without Regan the revolutions would have gone no where.

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Omg, I got it now! Reagan intentionally died now so that the press would be filled with stories how it was a republican president who was responsible for ending communism, which will help Bush win another term!

Now, seriously, Reagan maybe accelerated the fall of Soviet Union, but I hardly believe that it would last much longer considering the leadership it ended up with. After Brezhnyev and Hruschov, the Soviet Union no longer had a capable leader. Gorbachov was bent on installing a more liberal rule, which could have been a good thing, but the way he actually carried it through was as mismanaged as the american rebuilding of post-war Iraq. It's the perestroika that turned the union into a bunch of little dictatorships, Reagan had little to do with it, except perhaps convincing Gorbachov that it's a good idea to carry through.

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