So let me see now.

According to you (the thread starter):

A: Those of us who were present at the Armin show in May (which was closest to the Tiesto set in regards to time spinning and calendar date), and the Tiesto show in June {both @ Vision) are not allowed to believe that Armin was better.

B: It is alright for a performer who is getting 20k+ a night to show up and not perform at the level advertised.

C: That MTV is the final word on what American's listen to musically.


Now, to respond to each point.

A. I do not go to a show to listen specifically for trainwrecks or even for perfect mixing, but there is a point when you cannot help but notice that in the span of a dozen transitions, not even a handful of the beats were lined up. Armin's show in May was his worst this year @ Vision, in my opinion, but he still kept the beats lined up so people who were there to dance could dance. Tiesto in June was not even trying to match them, he would even have long crossfades of 30seconds or more with the galloping beats. Now I suppose there are people who can dance to that, but no one I know can. This is of course, the opinion I came to through my experience, and others are allowed to have their opinions, this is a free country.


B. Being a DJ at the level of superstardom is an occupation. When you are a paid performer, you have an obligation to give the people who are paying to attend your performance what they paid for, which is to see you perform to the level you are capable of. If I were to go see an orchestra play, you can be damn sure I want the conductor to be doing his job and not getting drunk and getting touchy feely with some silicone mounds on the conductor stand during the performance. Now, if the conductor is capable of drinking like a fish and fondling fake breasts while still doing his job to the level expected, then more power to him. But in my opinion, and that of many others, Tiesto is NOT capable of swilling booze and fondling women whilst doing what we paid him to do.

C. I guess I am old, but I have not turned on MTV in almost a decade, so I have no idea what is on that channel. But most of the people I know who are over 21 (which is the clientele of Vision because it is a 21+ venue) neither watch MTV nor do they listen to Hip-Hop. If the music business was driven only by sales of hip-hop music there would be no Sarah McLachlans, Limp Bizkits, Korns, Tim McGraws, Duran Durans, or Avril Lavignes for people to buy. There are all different types of musical tastes, and if Duran Duran has enough fans that they can sell 5000+ tickets to shows in Chicago, than the #1 electronic dance music performer in the world should be able to sell 1800 tickets to a show in Chicago just as easily whilke not having to lower their level due to lack of audience familiarity with the kind of music.


MrS

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-"Reality" is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.

This is getting intense.

Regarding the hip-hop culture thing, I'm not sure how Bartlett is, but I think Dave Matthews Band has a rather large following among younger audiences as well, not to mention that most people listen to more than one style of music.

As for playing in front of 25,000 people, I'm not so sure that every club in Europe holds that kind of capacity. Yes there are some enormous festivals in Europe and there's the Ibiza season, but TiC was supposed to be a big deal because it was set in a large arena, hence it's not the norm every week in Europe either.

Additionally, if you check out the CD/New Music Reviews forum, there's a lot of American flags next to posts regarding tracks. A lot of people in the U.S. in those 1,500 venues listen to radio shows on the internet or elsewhere and are just as familiar with new tracks as people in other countries and like the music just as much.

Also I'm pretty sure that DJs aren't expected to produce 4 hours of new music for every single gig they play. The majority of songs in Tiesto or most other DJs' sets are produced by other people and any trance producer would kill to have one of the top DJs play their track, so it's not like they don't have a shortage of tracks coming in to choose from. It does take some work, practice and creativity to put together a quality set, but a lot of songs are staples when someone goes on tour. I'm pretty sure that wasn't the first time Tiesto has played Traffic in public.

Finally, Tiesto has put together some good sets and productions, but when he was here recently, there's no way you can say that he did a better job of mixing than AvB unless you're one of the Republican Party members who claimed that George Bush presented his side better than Kerry in the 1st debate. If you don't like AvB, that's cool, but the kids who spin at the local bars here put more effort into their sets than just getting hammered and switching tracks just because the BPM counter matches. I don't care if you're playing in front of 2 people, if you're doing your job and you're considered to be one of the best at it, you can put at least as much effort into it as a kid at Goodbar who charges nothing for cover.

___________________
Download My Spring '08 Mix Here

Thurs May 15: Influence @ Tini Martini w/ Kris B. vs. Nosmo, Rikler & Mike Palmeri
Thurs June 5: Under the Influence @ Tini Martini w/Mathias Matthew, Jack Kim & more TBA

quote:

Originally posted by wolverine16 This is getting intense. Regarding the hip-hop culture thing, I'm not sure how Bartlett is, but I think Dave Matthews Band has a rather large following among younger audiences as well, not to mention that most people listen to more than one style of music. As for playing in front of 25,000 people, I'm not so sure that every club in Europe holds that kind of capacity. Yes there are some enormous festivals in Europe and there's the Ibiza season, but TiC was supposed to be a big deal because it was set in a large arena, hence it's not the norm every week in Europe either. Additionally, if you check out the CD/New Music Reviews forum, there's a lot of American flags next to posts regarding tracks. A lot of people in the U.S. in those 1,500 venues listen to radio shows on the internet or elsewhere and are just as familiar with new tracks as people in other countries and like the music just as much. Also I'm pretty sure that DJs aren't expected to produce 4 hours of new music for every single gig they play. The majority of songs in Tiesto or most other DJs' sets are produced by other people and any trance producer would kill to have one of the top DJs play their track, so it's not like they don't have a shortage of tracks coming in to choose from. It does take some work, practice and creativity to put together a quality set, but a lot of songs are staples when someone goes on tour. I'm pretty sure that wasn't the first time Tiesto has played Traffic in public. Finally, Tiesto has put together some good sets and productions, but when he was here recently, there's no way you can say that he did a better job of mixing than AvB unless you're one of the Republican Party members who claimed that George Bush presented his side better than Kerry in the 1st debate. If you don't like AvB, that's cool, but the kids who spin at the local bars here put more effort into their sets than just getting hammered and switching tracks just because the BPM counter matches. I don't care if you're playing in front of 2 people, if you're doing your job and you're considered to be one of the best at it, you can put at least as much effort into it as a kid at Goodbar who charges nothing for cover.

Getting intense , Yeah i like to stir things up sometimes.There really are getting to be too many points to rebut so i'll just focus on a few and make this one quick,Im getting tired of typing.I really didnt expect this to pinch a nerve.

Overall ,You make some good points but when i was referring to 25,000 people i did not say every club had that capacity , As far as i know though nothing in america has come close to that yet for a single DJ, hell whats the largest MULTIPLE DJ's have played at in the States, I have no idea ?

I hear everyone slamming Tiesto left and right but everyone is ABSOLUTELY entitled to their opinion . Just realize that the man is doing great things for trance music as a whole . Whether you like him or not he IS doing great things for Trance music in general, Olympic set , Tiesto in concert 1 and (upcoming) 2 , (upcoming) his to be set in vegas on New Years which i believe is supposed to have 25,000 people (think it said that in another thread).

Finally about the debate ,Both Kerry and Bush are the same people they both suck . Both obscenely rich , Big Government , High Budget , Yale graduates , Skull + Bones members , Are typical propaganda oriented politicians who want nothing more than to continue the political party duopoly.Im voting third party candidate

Well i guess my response ended up being longer than i wanted it to.
P E A C E

quote:

Originally posted by tubularbills Agreed. I saw Armin for the first time ever this summer [May 2004, @ Vision]. Not only was it spectacular to actually see him live, but to see him interact w/ the crowd. He always had a smile on his face and seemed to be having fun. The tracklist was pretty smooth too.

this post reminds me of WHY this debate is raging.

As trance gets more supporters in the states... they pick a party to go on..Armin is the current BIG thing trying to crack the states for audience and everything.

Had u been (in different circumstances) in holland in 1996-99 or in the UK between 2000-02... u wouldve seen all the extra interaction from Tiesto.

Now tiesto is larger than anything before him... its not necessary to throw himself at the crowd so much. As they already throw themselves on him TOO MUCH.

Everyone is giving their opinion that Armin is greater... and in 2004... he does show some stage prescence... but its something thats been done before. Which is why as i posted before.. he is always gonna be second rate.

quote:

Originally posted by MichaelBoogerd! this post reminds me of WHY this debate is raging. As trance gets more supporters in the states... they pick a party to go on..Armin is the current BIG thing trying to crack the states for audience and everything. Had u been (in different circumstances) in holland in 1996-99 or in the UK between 2000-02... u wouldve seen all the extra interaction from Tiesto. Now tiesto is larger than anything before him... its not necessary to throw himself at the crowd so much. As they already throw themselves on him TOO MUCH. Everyone is giving their opinion that Armin is greater... and in 2004... he does show some stage prescence... but its something thats been done before. Which is why as i posted before.. he is always gonna be second rate.

so you're saying that since tiesto is no #1 he doesn't NEED to have any interaction with the crowds and that he doesn't NEED to have any stage prescence during his performances and that he can rest on his laurels, while people continue to pay $40+ to see him.

makes perfect sense to me.

that is not what i said...

just that he doesnt need to kiss our asses to get anywhere like Armin does.

If Armin wants the No.1 spot - he has to work it. Tiesto has worked it for 10 years. He doesnt have to work it now. SOmetimes he doesnt get the mood for it, sometimes he does. When u can't go to the supermarket around the corner for fans asking for a photo - it starts to piss u off that u go to a show and everyone wants a photo. Thats just nature.

Armin himself has said he went and got an ibiza residency this year to compete (play) on the same level as Tiesto and PvD.
ie. he is organising himself to become the next no.1...

thats the difference and why i can't stand him. Tiesto yes, had a masterplan to get there... but even that occured early. It shouldve been 2003 after TIC when he won, but he did it already in 2002. PvD is just there... he isnt trying for it. He is just naturally up there.
Armin is also working for it on a masterplan. But to me, and a lot of other people who saw it already with Oakey, Tiesto etc. Its just a bit like a try-hard right now to see him as a serious dj.

btw..should i put IMO all over this post to make sure u dont try and personally attack what i think? yeah i'd better.. IMO IMO IMO.. just in case... IMO

there.

quote:

Originally posted by MichaelBoogerd! that is not what i said... just that he doesnt need to kiss our asses to get anywhere like Armin does. If Armin wants the No.1 spot - he has to work it. Tiesto has worked it for 10 years. He doesnt have to work it now. SOmetimes he doesnt get the mood for it, sometimes he does. When u can't go to the supermarket around the corner for fans asking for a photo - it starts to piss u off that u go to a show and everyone wants a photo. Thats just nature. Armin himself has said he went and got an ibiza residency this year to compete (play) on the same level as Tiesto and PvD. ie. he is organising himself to become the next no.1... thats the difference and why i can't stand him. Tiesto yes, had a masterplan to get there... but even that occured early. It shouldve been 2003 after TIC when he won, but he did it already in 2002. PvD is just there... he isnt trying for it. He is just naturally up there. Armin is also working for it on a masterplan. But to me, and a lot of other people who saw it already with Oakey, Tiesto etc. Its just a bit like a try-hard right now to see him as a serious dj. btw..should i put IMO all over this post to make sure u dont try and personally attack what i think? yeah i'd better.. IMO IMO IMO.. just in case... IMO there.

so - if you work hard you shouldn't be taken seriously? IMO hard work should be rewarded.

and i don't think that armin is kissing anyone ass at the moment (except maybe his gf's ). it appears to me that he just has an outgoing personality and the fact that he likes to spend time with his fans at gigs and afters shows that he appreciates his fans.

why do you people have to think ill of someone that obviously loves his job and is trying to accomplish something? nothing wrong with wanting something and then making a plan to get what you want. isn't that what we all do in our lives? make a goal and then figure out how to accomplish that goal? because i have the goal of making partner in my firm and that involves coming up with a master plan every year to make sure that i get the right experiences, work with the right people and clients, i shouldn't be taken seriously?

and its not becoming personal, i'm just trying to show why some of your logic doesn't make any sense to me

Last edited by ctprincess on Oct-25-2004 at 14:18

quote:

Originally posted by XtremeNINja27 You gotta be kidding? Turn on MTV for five seconds and tell me how many rap / hip-hop videos you see? how many gold teeth,Girls with big A$$es shaking it in the camera and how many exotic cars that the rappers rented for the shoot to glorify gansta life.You realize i have just described half of all rap videos.Ignorant? Come on, When i said sheltered opinion i was referring to the dance culture in europe. I know way to many kids who think they are tough s?!t because they listen to rap.There are a couple exceptions to this such as Outkast who do not rap about one topic in every song.Ignorant about Rap? You guys rip on Tiesto for his shameless self promotion (which i agree can be excessive) but compare him to someone like Puffy,Fabolous or Kanye West there is just no comparison,Every song they mention they are the one putting down the rhymes and spitting some mad lyrics.Now im not mad or anything but if you are calling me ignorant about something dont just say "you're ignorant" and leave it at that give me some reasoning to back it up, I'll admit if Im wrong but let me know why you think i am wrong, Oh your right i forgot to mention all the hoes and how pimpin aint eazy. Just remember gurl hayt tha gaym dont hayt tha playa,

i heard a wonderful quote last night from Lewis Black...

"MTV is to music, as KFC is to chicken"

i called you ignorant because you are generalizing one type of hip-hop music. in the same regard that someone might hear Sandstorm on MTV and think "wow, all techno music is repetitive cheesy druggie raver music".

quote:

Originally posted by MrSquirrel B. Being a DJ at the level of superstardom is an occupation. When you are a paid performer, you have an obligation to give the people who are paying to attend your performance what they paid for, which is to see you perform to the level you are capable of. If I were to go see an orchestra play, you can be damn sure I want the conductor to be doing his job and not getting drunk and getting touchy feely with some silicone mounds on the conductor stand during the performance. Now, if the conductor is capable of drinking like a fish and fondling fake breasts while still doing his job to the level expected, then more power to him. But in my opinion, and that of many others, Tiesto is NOT capable of swilling booze and fondling women whilst doing what we paid him to do.

that image cracked me up.

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quote:

Originally posted by XtremeNINja27 (upcoming) his to be set in vegas on New Years which i believe is supposed to have 25,000 people (think it said that in another thread).

Exactly!!! Maybe there's no hip-hop shows in the U.S. that night and this crowd might actually be worth his time?

It seems there's 2 people here arguing overall that Tiesto is better than AvB and everyone else has been discussing when he was last here and gave no effort. The fact is HE WAS HAMMERED
No one's really been bashing Tiesto other than that show. I've been bashing the concept that someone considered to be one of the best in the world at what they do, regardless of if it's Tiesto, should give paying audiences in the U.S. less quality because we supposedly aren't as great as European crowds.

Other than that, Tiesto and AvB play some of the same tracks, but they are rather different, so like whoever you want. It's as silly as the ranking system to claim that one DJ is better than another amongst the top people, because most people aren't going to like #2 over #3 just because that's their ranking. The list only really is useful to help DJs show promoters that they have a large following and get exposure, which to them personally can be vital.

quote:

Originally posted by MichaelBoogerd! Armin himself has said he went and got an ibiza residency this year to compete (play) on the same level as Tiesto and PvD. ie. he is organising himself to become the next no.1... thats the difference and why i can't stand him.

If you aren't into AvB fine, but I think he should be ranked as the #1 actor in the world if all he wants is to be at the top slot this year, because he has been putting in a lot of work for many years prior to 04 and there's no way he's just sucking up to everyone for a goal. He should want to be #1 at what he does and he's working for that by putting together what he feels is the best work. That doesn't mean he isn't passionate about what he does. And that's exactly why a lot of people who saw Tiesto for the first time in June were disappointed, because he should still be trying every night, because why wouldn't he want to continue to be ranked #1 at something he is supposed to love?

___________________
Download My Spring '08 Mix Here

Thurs May 15: Influence @ Tini Martini w/ Kris B. vs. Nosmo, Rikler & Mike Palmeri
Thurs June 5: Under the Influence @ Tini Martini w/Mathias Matthew, Jack Kim & more TBA

no doubt Armin

And since I'm bored at work, here's a recreation of June.

| |
|-------0*0-----|











There's Tiesto up there with his girls having some fun, while everyone on the floor is in a state of confusion since 2 entirely different beats are being played...

Meanwhile at the bar, the bartender can't believe he has to send up more liquor despite the trainwrecks already in progress.

|*** ***|
------------
"yes sir,he says he needs more vodka"

OK,maybe I am bashing him, but just for that set.

___________________
Download My Spring '08 Mix Here

Thurs May 15: Influence @ Tini Martini w/ Kris B. vs. Nosmo, Rikler & Mike Palmeri
Thurs June 5: Under the Influence @ Tini Martini w/Mathias Matthew, Jack Kim & more TBA

agreed. But he has always done the same thing as the other big dj's who've been around longer. They brought something new with them... he has yet to convince of this at the moment. Not that i am giving him much chance to start convincing me either.

quote:

Originally posted by wolverine16 Exactly!!! Maybe there's no hip-hop shows in the U.S. that night and this crowd might actually be worth his time? It seems there's 2 people here arguing overall that Tiesto is better than AvB and everyone else has been discussing when he was last here and gave no effort. The fact is HE WAS HAMMERED No one's really been bashing Tiesto other than that show. I've been bashing the concept that someone considered to be one of the best in the world at what they do, regardless of if it's Tiesto, should give paying audiences in the U.S. less quality because we supposedly aren't as great as European crowds. Other than that, Tiesto and AvB play some of the same tracks, but they are rather different, so like whoever you want. It's as silly as the ranking system to claim that one DJ is better than another amongst the top people, because most people aren't going to like #2 over #3 just because that's their ranking. The list only really is useful to help DJs show promoters that they have a large following and get exposure, which to them personally can be vital. If you aren't into AvB fine, but I think he should be ranked as the #1 actor in the world if all he wants is to be at the top slot this year, because he has been putting in a lot of work for many years prior to 04 and there's no way he's just sucking up to everyone for a goal. He should want to be #1 at what he does and he's working for that by putting together what he feels is the best work. That doesn't mean he isn't passionate about what he does. And that's exactly why a lot of people who saw Tiesto for the first time in June were disappointed, because he should still be trying every night, because why wouldn't he want to continue to be ranked #1 at something he is supposed to love?