hrmmmz...

quote:

New browser to challenge Microsoft Tuesday, November 9, 2004 Posted: 11:29 AM EST (1629 GMT) (CNN) -- Microsoft's dominance of the Web browser market faces a fresh challenge on Tuesday with the release of the final version of Mozilla's Firefox browser. The Mozilla Foundation, a California-based non-profit organization dedicated to developing open source software, hopes Firefox 1.0 will attract millions of users away from Microsoft's Internet Explorer. Last month more than eight million people downloaded the preview edition of the browser, contributing to its final development. Like other open source software, such as the operating system Linux, Firefox's code is freely available for any programmer to examine and improve. "We are delighted to be announcing this major milestone for the Mozilla Foundation and for the Firefox browser, which has been made possible thanks to the tireless effort of hundreds of community volunteers and developers around the world," said Mozilla president Mitchell Baker. "Now millions more will be able to enjoy a better web experience." Although development editions of Firefox have existed for several years, 1.0 is the first version intended for a full release. Its developers claim it is more stable than previous editions and more secure than Explorer, which has become a popular target for hackers because of its near-ubiquitous presence on PCs. Firefox features a pop-up ad blocker, online fraud protection and the ability to display several web pages in a single window, using "tabbed browsing." "Open source projects have a much higher standard," Mozilla director of engineering Chris Hofmann told Reuters. "It's the engineers that actually build the software that label when it's done." Mozilla has already made inroads into Explorer's share of the browser market. According to the Web usage tracker WebSideStory, Microsoft's share has slipped to 92.9 percent from 95.5 percent since June. In the same period Mozilla's share increased from 3.5 percent to six percent. Explorer, which is packaged with Microsoft's Windows operating system, hasn't been seriously challenged since usurping Netscape, the browser instrumental in the development of the Internet, in the late 1990s. Mozilla was set-up to complete a project set-up by Netscape, which stopped development last year, to make the code of its browser publicly available. Explorer's critics argue that Microsoft stopped making developments once it had achieved market dominance. Microsoft says a new version with enhanced security features will be ready for the next edition of Windows, currently scheduled for release in 2006.

source:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/11/09/...efox/index.html

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Me loves the publicity firefox gets everywhere

quote:

Originally posted by Durafei That kind of reasoning is the reason we need to upgrade our computers every couple of years. If only software developers were smarter, and tried to write software for current computers, rather than optimize for future versions - well, then we wouldn't be forced to upgrade(spend money) every few years.

Thank you!

From the perspective of an internal developer, I absolutely DESPISE sloppy, bloated code. The point is not whether or not your computer can "handle" it - the point is that it's totally unnecessary! Honestly, a web browser is not that complicated an application; In Delphi I think there's actually a drop-in component that you can stick in any app, free of royalties, which has almost all the functionality of Internet Explorer minus the useless crap like ActiveX and BHOs.

Memory DOES MATTER, and so does CPU time. If you worked in an IT department running a *nix network, you'd be laughed out of the office if you made comments like "who cares about memory". Honestly, these comments are almost always made by lazy Windows users who have next to no clue how their system actually functions beneath the pretty little GUI. Even if your computer has 10 gigabytes of memory, it's not just about the numbers! There are tons of other issues you have to worry about - to name just a few:
- Swapping (Windows especially likes to page *everything* into virtual memory even when there's plenty of free physical memory)
- Other system resources (IE likes to open 15 threads and 410 handles when it's IDLE - why? God only knows... then there's video memory, GDI resources, etc...)
- Fragmentation - the bigger the memory footprint, the more fragmented that memory is likely to get, which causes the program to run slowly and may cause OTHER programs to run slowly even after being shut down.

Again, from a developer's perspective, I am very much against needless optimizations that save memory or disk space at the cost of maintainability or major functionality. It's annoying to see programmers who crash the whole program trying to rewrite 2 instructions as 1 instruction. But there is NO reason for a program to take up 120 MB unless it's a high-end program like Photoshop or Reason. I have a program that opens several databases and up to 50 threads and never pushes past the 25 MB mark - even with all the debug information left in and several debug processes running! And I don't consider this brilliant programming or amazing optimization techniques - that's about what a modern program SHOULD take up. When I see a program like IE taking up 25% of my system's memory, I seriously have to wonder what the hell their programmers were thinking.

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quote:

When I see a program like IE taking up 25% of my system's memory, I seriously have to wonder what the hell their programmers were thinking.

For the sake of having a complete argument, I should mention that sometimes programmers trade space for speed(ie. programs run faster at the expense of using more memory).

However in Internet Explorer's case, it seems like IE programmers traded both space and speed for the development speed(ie. coded IE quickly and sloppy just to get it to the market as soon as possible). Unfortunately they then forgot to update IE for another 3 years, so it remained slow.

That's the beauty of Open Source software. There is never really any rush. Programmers can take their time, and develop solid code that works.

quote:

Originally posted by dEsidEL seems like Firefox 1.0 isn't compatible with the lastest version of BBCode .. gonna hav to wait for a new release on the extension ..

try again, i updated my copy and it works fine..

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[alk]

quote:

Originally posted by Durafei Well, I just bought(1.5 months ago) a laptop with 256megs of ram, celeron.. and it's FUCKIN SLOW ! I hate it (the only reason I bought it cause it was cheap). But ever since I started using Firefox on it, it became noticeably faster.

dude i said 256 AND less... everyone knows XP to run smoothly needs 512.

quote:

Malek, are you sure you understand what Memory Leakage means? It means that software doesn't deallocate memory, which it allocated earlier. Pretty much all software suffers from that problems(some more than others).

trust me I know what leakage means...

dude, Windows Kernel is risponsible of deallocating that memory... even if a poorly written software doesn't do it proprerly or better crashes, that kernel will free up those resources. (ok thats on paper, nothing is perfect)

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quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Thank you! From the perspective of an internal developer, I absolutely DESPISE sloppy, bloated code. The point is not whether or not your computer can "handle" it - the point is that it's totally unnecessary! Honestly, a web browser is not that complicated an application; In Delphi I think there's actually a drop-in component that you can stick in any app, free of royalties, which has almost all the functionality of Internet Explorer minus the useless crap like ActiveX and BHOs. Memory DOES MATTER, and so does CPU time. If you worked in an IT department running a *nix network, you'd be laughed out of the office if you made comments like "who cares about memory". Honestly, these comments are almost always made by lazy Windows users who have next to no clue how their system actually functions beneath the pretty little GUI. Even if your computer has 10 gigabytes of memory, it's not just about the numbers! There are tons of other issues you have to worry about - to name just a few: - Swapping (Windows especially likes to page *everything* into virtual memory even when there's plenty of free physical memory) - Other system resources (IE likes to open 15 threads and 410 handles when it's IDLE - why? God only knows... then there's video memory, GDI resources, etc...) - Fragmentation - the bigger the memory footprint, the more fragmented that memory is likely to get, which causes the program to run slowly and may cause OTHER programs to run slowly even after being shut down. Again, from a developer's perspective, I am very much against needless optimizations that save memory or disk space at the cost of maintainability or major functionality. It's annoying to see programmers who crash the whole program trying to rewrite 2 instructions as 1 instruction. But there is NO reason for a program to take up 120 MB unless it's a high-end program like Photoshop or Reason. I have a program that opens several databases and up to 50 threads and never pushes past the 25 MB mark - even with all the debug information left in and several debug processes running! And I don't consider this brilliant programming or amazing optimization techniques - that's about what a modern program SHOULD take up. When I see a program like IE taking up 25% of my system's memory, I seriously have to wonder what the hell their programmers were thinking.

I can guarantee that 90% of the end user's out there, don't give a shit about fragmentation and page files (until I hear their whining and grovelling).
That's not to put down your post DigiNut, I totally agree with everyone that there are better alternatives and those of us with technical savy scream like a little girl when we've finished molding our system specs but most people just don't care about that.
Those people see a computer as a tool like a snowblower is to the driveway (oh gawd did I really just make a snow reference???); a means to an end but that's about it.
Us technophiles know the difference but we are few.
Maybe with a little guidance we can convert the oblivious...

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quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Thank you! From the perspective of an internal developer, I absolutely DESPISE sloppy, bloated code. The point is not whether or not your computer can "handle" it - the point is that it's totally unnecessary!

blablabla... you're talking as if coders and programmers are all alike and as if they DO control the time they have on their hands to get out that (any) product.

We all know, that Quality insurance is always pushed aside by companies and that delivering the product asap is the first thing in their mind.

So UNLESS your program is an embedded software which is supposed to run a nuclear plant or a peacemaker, memory and cpu usage is the last thing on many companies mind, they're not paying for them anyways...

guys, there's a real world out there

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quote:

Originally posted by Durafei However in Internet Explorer's case, it seems like IE programmers traded both space and speed for the development speed(ie. coded IE quickly and sloppy just to get it to the market as soon as possible). Unfortunately they then forgot to update IE for another 3 years, so it remained slow.

why are you puttin the emphasis on the programmers??? they don't control the project. Its a buisness case boys and girls, it works 99.5% of the time, great! ship it!

quote:

That's the beauty of Open Source software. There is never really any rush. Programmers can take their time, and develop solid code that works.

dude those open source guys will grow up and look for a job to put some bread on the table...

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quote:

Originally posted by malek dude those open source guys will grow up and look for a job to put some bread on the table...

hehe I'm sure the majority of those open source guys can put more than just bread on the table. You really think for example someone like Linus or Brendan Eich, Mozilla chief architect, have problems putting bread on the table? maybe they are extreme exceptions but like them, most have really well paid jobs during the day

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[alk]

Last edited by loconet on Nov-11-2004 at 04:41

quote:

Originally posted by malek We all know, that Quality insurance is always pushed aside by companies and that delivering the product asap is the first thing in their mind.

I agree and that is why ...

quote:

Originally posted by Durafei That's the beauty of Open Source software. There is never really any rush. Programmers can take their time, and develop solid code that works.

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[alk]