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ShadoWolf
ISOS
Registered: Apr 2002
Location: State of Trance
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 Dec-09-2004 01:15 
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occrider
Traveladdict
Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York
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| quote: | Originally posted by erdega
you can't grasp anything cause you are jewish media lackey with preconceived notions and no direct knowledge of situation. |
Ah yes ... it was only a matter of time before the ad hominems came out.
| quote: |
How do you justify to your self to promote a report that is barely 30 pages long and peppered with unverifiable statements and very much one sided over a report that is 100 pages longer and goes into excrutiating physical detail? |
The final report plus the addendum to the final report are a combined 70 pages or so. THe addendum contains the official government records. Heh ironically enough the preliminary report that you like to defend gets its sources from UN studies and studies that other groups have done. Those groups have since pointed out the preliminary's reports distortions of the original facts:
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Authorities in the Federation Entity of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the international community have severely condemned a report released by authorities in the Republika Srpska claiming the July 1995 massacre of Bosnian Muslims at Srebrenica never happened. Though it is widely accepted that between 7,000 and 8,000 Bosniak men and boys were massacred by Bosnian Serb forces when they took control of Srebrenica in eastern Bosnia between 11 and 15 July 1995, the report offers a completely different story, blaming deaths on "exhaustion," among other things.
The report — conducted in early September by the Republika Srpska's Government Bureau for Relations with the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) — claims that no more than 2,000 were killed, and that all were armed soldiers of the Bosnian Army and not civilians. Of those 2,000, the new study says that 1,600 were killed in battle or while attempting escape, and 100 died simply because they were "exhausted." The study also claims that it is possible that fewer than 200 members of the Bosnian Army were killed by members of the Bosnian Serb Army in acts of revenge or because they were not aware of the particulars of the Geneva Convention on prisoners of war.
"To walk for almost 20 days in an area that might be full of landmines, without any food and water, under the fear of being shot from any direction was such a trauma that soldiers sometimes mixed reality with illusions," the report concluded, referring to a member of the Bosnian Serb army who confessed to having taken part in the mass killings as "mentally disturbed." The controversial study is to be presented to officials at the ICTY and to a handful of local and international nongovernmental organizations to be used in the defense of Bosnian Serb soldiers and politicians accused of war crimes between 1992 and 1995.
The study is partially a compilation from other, earlier studies conducted by various institutions, including the United Nations and the International Crisis Group (ICG). But those institutions have accused the Bosnian Serb authorities of manipulating the earlier reports and using only parts of statements to change context. Across the board, the international community has harshly criticized the report as an attempt to cover up the heinous crimes committed at that time. The International Commission on Missing Persons (ICMP) released a statement on 6 September, calling the report a gross distortion of the facts.
"Manipulation of the issue of the missing for political purposes, including the manipulation of numbers of missing, has been an ongoing practice within Bosnia and Herzegovina that only serves to cause further pain and suffering in a society that has already suffered so much. The study regarding the numbers of missing from the 1995 fall of Srebrenica made by the Republika Srpska's Government Bureau for Relations with the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) contains what ICMP believes to be serious inaccuracies," ICMP's statement read.
According to information from ICMP, "there are approximately 7,500 bags of human remains currently in storage, which have been exhumed from various gravesites in northeast BiH. These remains are stored in three locations in Tuzla and one location in Visoko. Almost 2,000 of these bags contain complete bodies, another 2,000 bags contain partial bodies of one individual, and the remaining 3,500 bags contain 'commingled remains.'"
However, the government of Republika Srpska, of which the bureau that conducted the report is a part, is dragging its feet over a public rejection. The entity's media has largely come out in favor of the report, while Republika Srpska President Mirko Sarovic has said only that the report should not be dismissed entirely, but does warrant further investigation.
When Srebrenica fell under Bosnian Serb control, the report says, between 25,000 and 40,000 local residents decided to surrender themselves at the UN base. According to the study, most of those who surrendered were women, children, and the elderly, with approximately 2 to 3 percent soldiers. Bosnian Serb officials claim that they transferred those civilians to safe territory under Bosnian government control, and took the soldiers to a prison camp in the town of Bratunac.
The bureau's director, Dejan Miletic, told the Banja Luka daily Nezavisne novine that of 750 Bosnian Army soldiers arrested, 500 were immediately released and the rest were sent to prison camps in Batkovici. "Later, those 250 prisoners were exchanged for Bosnian Serb prisoners of war. Also, between 10,000 and 15,000 Bosniak civilians and armed soldiers tried to escape from Srebrenica through the forest, but there is no evidence of war crimes committed against them," he said.
"So far, more than 30 mass graves have been discovered along those escape routes," Amor Masovic, president of the Bosnian Commission for Missing Persons, told TOL*. Masovic said that no one from the Republika Srpska bureau has ever been present at mass grave exhumations in that region. And if any of them did show up at those graves, Masovic says he would gladly give them evidence of heinous crimes.
Sinisa Djordjevic, adviser to Republika Srpska's prime minister for relations with The Hague, told the ONASA news agency that there can be more than one truth about Srebrenica during the war because over 1,000 Bosnian Serb civilians were also killed. "We want to find out the truth about Srebrenica. We want to bury the hatchet, but we want the facts to be known to the public in order to secure peace in Bosnia," Djordjevic was quoted as saying. Djordjevic is a member of the prime minister's Party of Democratic Progress (PDP). Analysts link the emergence of the report with the October general elections in Bosnia, when the PDP will compete with the ultra-nationalist Serbian Democratic Party (SDS) for the votes of a still rather nationalist electorate.
Djordjevic said that he doesn't believe that more than 7,000 Bosniaks were killed when Bosnian Serbs took control of Srebrenica. "The study shows that the crimes committed in Srebrenica according to Bosniak politicians are not backed up by complete information about victims' names, and the lists that exist of those killed are very suspicious. In addition, the details of those who committed the so-called crimes and when they were committed are unknown," he said. Djordjevic claims that Bosniak politicians manipulated the number of victims in order to turn the international community against Bosnian Serbs.
All major politicians and media outlets in the federation condemned the report. But Prime Minister Ivanic claimed last week that "the federation media made fuss over the report for their own purposes."
http://www.time.com/time/europe/eu/...,349957,00.html
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| quote: |
That's jewish authored or rather edited document from cnn and other controlled media. I already showed you the real document, however you push this propaganda trick. I am more experienced than that, you won't persuade me or overpower me no matter how much you repeat yourself.
You are just confused as far as this particular subject is concerned and better to admit to it to yourself and find a subject you are familiar with. |
Ummm yea ok guy, you can go to the Bosnian Serb government's website yourself and download the final report.
http://www.vladars.net/en/pm/index.html
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Retro ...
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Dec-09-2004 01:16 
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occrider
Traveladdict
Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York
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| quote: | Originally posted by erdega
It was a matter of time till you were exposed
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Yes of course ... I am an integral component of the media conspiracy as you know.
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The so called final report is for the propaganda use of the Hague court . Needles to say it's travesty of justice and used only as a propaganda tool. Now since the original document presents such things as physical facts it stands higher ground than jewish authored and edited war propaganda piece.There is too much distortion without any proof that would stand and no mention of hundreds of civilians who were butchered around Srebrenica. It's a classical jewish plot of distorting the truth and undermining other victims and funded by jews from US government as well as some oligarchs like George Soros.
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The preliminary report cited sources from other investigations who summarily rejected the preliminary report as having distorted their findings. How is that a presentation of the physical facts if the people they got their facts from say that preliminary report manipulated their data?
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again you give the same distorted document that can't be proven at all. just a bunch of innuendo and war propaganda. It requires far more detail to be taken seriously and it offers none and that's for purpose because they want to use for propaganda purposes. I've listened to lots of jewsish propaganda living here and in states and You are just another propagator of it. It's on that serbian site just because the whole bosnia is occupied by nato. Nato ordered it be put there. Nato as a whole definitely has no credibility in the balkans but just military might.
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Haha I see. Now that you can't refute the claim the final document is the product of the Bosnian Serb government's commission on Srebenia you do the next best thing by saying that NATO forced the Serbian government to release it to the public. Who would have thought that you would have taken that route?
Hmmm it's funny you should use antiwar as your source material. I actually followed one of the links antiwar used to justify its argument and surprise surprise, one of their referenced sources is the report released in April 2002 by the Netherlands Institute for War Documentation on Srebenica:
http://www.srebrenica.nl/en/a_index.htm
If we read a part of the full report what do we find?
| quote: |
3. The motives for the executions
As a wartime objective of the Bosnian Serbs, Srebrenica was not different to any other target: ethnic cleansing would be applied to bring about an ethnically homogenous region. However, the extent to which the population would fall victim to this policy took on unprecedented proportions, giving rise to widespread astonishment and disbelief. After all, UNPROFOR forces were there and it was their duty to break the spiral of violence into which the civilian population had been plunged. How was it possible that the war could nevertheless sink into the depths of sheer barbarism?
Originally, the primary objective of the VRS military operation which began on the 6th of July was to limit the territory of the Srebrenica enclave and to create an intolerable situation for the population within. In the fullness of time, this strategy would lead to such hardships that the population would be forced to move on elsewhere. The original plan of operation 'Kravija 95' made no provision for the civilian population whatsoever, although it did explicitly stipulate that the usual rules and conventions of war should apply. When the decision to take the entire enclave was made on the 9th of July, no guidelines for dealing with the civilians existed other than to state that the safety of the people in the area controlled by the VRS or the Bosnian Serb police should be guaranteed.[1]
The question of why the executions took place at all is not easy to answer. During the Krstic trial before the Yugoslavia Tribunal, the prosecution's military advisor, Richard Butler, pointed out in taking this course of action, the Bosnian Serbs deprived themselves of an extremely valuable bargaining counter. Butler suggested that the Bosnian Serbs would have had far more to gain had they taken the men in Potocari as prisoners of war, under the supervision of the International Red Cross and the UN troops still in the area. It might then have been possible to enter into some sort of exchange deal or they might have been able to force political concessions.[2] Based on this reasoning, the ensuing mass murder defied rational explanation.
There is no surviving documentation concerning the organization of the executions. Indeed, it is unlikely that any orders so flagrantly flouting humanitarian law would be committed to paper in the first place. Even during the Krstic trial, it proved impossible to answer the question of when the decision to kill the men had been taken. The judges could not exclude the possibility that plans for the executions were originally hatched by the General Staff of the VRS, and that the Drina Corps which actually carried out the attack on Srebrenica had not been consulted about them beforehand. The Tribunal found that there was sufficient evidence to link Krstic with the organization of the removal of the women and children from Potocari, but that there was insufficient evidence that he actually made any arrangements for the executions. Because the Tribunal was unable to establish the date on which the decision to execute all able-bodied men was taken, it could not be determined whether the murders in Potocari on the 12 and 13 of July formed part of a larger plan. The men who were captured on the road to Tuzla were not admitted to recognised war camps (such as that at Batkovici) but were confined in appalling conditions in sheds, vehicles, sports halls, etc., without food or water. This suggests that a decision to execute the men had indeed been taken at some central level. As in Potocari, these men had their identification papers confiscated and burnt, which was also seemingly irrefutable evidence of malicious intent on the part of their captors.[3]
Emotional factors such as revenge, anger and frustration seem to have gained the upper hand in prompting the executions. This column of men was on its way from the captured enclave to the safety of Tuzla, and seemed to be escaping the clutches of the Bosnian Serbs. Revenge for the murder of Bosnian Serb civilians in and around the enclave in 1992 and 1993 is frequently cited as a motive for the executions, both in the Muslim Croat Federation and in the Republika Srpska. There was, after all, considerable animosity between the various ethnic groups. According to a UN official, that animosity was so great that nowhere else in Bosnia was there so little peaceful negotiation between the combatant parties, and nowhere else were there so many skirmishes around a Safe Area as in that around Srebrenica.[4]
The situation obtaining at the time may also have contributed to the fateful decision. In the previous chapter, it was stated that the breakout from Srebrenica came as a complete surprise to the Bosnian Serbs who were totally unprepared. The conflict between the VRS and the 28th Division of the ABiH had taken a new turn by sundown on the 11th of July, by which time the VRS no longer knew exactly where the ABiH was positioned. On the orders of General Mladic, the VRS troops regrouped in the centre of the newly captured enclave. By noon the following day, they had left once more, en route to their next target, Zepa. Only reserve troops - a few MUP units and Military Police - remained in the enclave.[5] This may well have contributed to the feelings of uncertainty or even panic on the part of the Bosnian Serbs, particularly when the VRS discovered that the ABiH troops had withdrawn and there was now to be a movement across Bosnian Serb-held territory without any prior preparation.
The sheer size of the party of men, both soldiers and civilians, which fell into Bosnian Serb hands soon thereafter would also have come as a great surprise. The rules and customs of engagement required that shelter, food, water and medical care be provided. This presented yet another unexpected problem: an extensive logistic operation would have to be launched at the very moment that the capture of the fleeing column was already causing so many problems. At the same time, it was necessary to ensure that the territory of the former enclave remained 'cleansed', while the operation against Zepa also demanded full attention. To establish the identity of each of these men, to question them as POWs and to determine any involvement in war crimes would take considerable time and would have exceeded the capacity of the VRS and Security agencies.[6]
These factors suggest that there was no proof that the mass murder of the men may have formed part of the plans for the capture of Srebrenica before the operation itself. The Security and Intelligence units of the Drina Corps and the VRS Military Police had originally been ordered to assemble and guard prisoners of war upon the capture of Srebrenica.[7] There is therefore no indication that the VRS had harboured the intention of killing the ABiH soldiers and men in the column proceeding to Tuzla.
During the second meeting with the Dutchbat Commander Karremans in the Hotel Fontana, held on 12 of July, Mladic stated that all men of combatant age would be 'screened' for their part in war crimes. Such screening and the interrogation of prisoners of war is, under the international rules of engagement, permitted.[8] On the same day the VRS' Bratunac Brigade had made a list of Muslims who were suspected of war crimes. From notes made by members of the Bratunac Brigade, the Tribunal was able to deduce that some had indeed been questioned about their involvement in such crimes around this time.[9] Dutchbat sources were also able to confirm that this was done in Bratunac.[10] The VRS had a list of approximately 100 people from the enclave who were wanted for questioning in connection with war crimes.[11]
However, it soon became apparent that the Bosnian Serbs did not plan to interview the men in compliance with international law. At first, some were rounded up and interrogated, but the number involved soon became unmanageable for the Bosnian Serbs. This could well have influenced the decision to execute all male prisoners. Rather than spend any more time in interrogating people to establish guilt or innocence, they seized all men and boys, regardless of age. No exceptions were made, no distinction drawn between civilians and military personnel. All personal belongings and identity papers were confiscated and were subsequently destroyed to avoid any evidence being left.[12] This process, as it affected the men in the immediate vicinity of the compound at Potocari, is described in further detail in Chapter 4 of this section. The current chapter deals with the executions beyond the immediate area of the compound.
Exactly when was the decision made to discontinue screening and to execute the prisoners instead? During the Hotel Fontana meeting with Karremans on the morning of July the 12th, Mladic stated that it would be better for the ABiH troops to lay down their arms rather than be killed. If he was sincere in this belief, we may deduce that any plan for a mass murder could have emerged no sooner than the end of that morning. It was then that the Bosnian Serbs learned that the men were planning to escape, and that the disarmament envisaged by Mladic was unlikely to take place. There is little sinister in the statements made by Karadzic in Pale that day. Karadzic boasted that there had been no civilian casualties during the fighting and that he had no objection to the continued presence of UNPROFOR. He dismissed all admonitions from the international community, but did not make any threats with regard to the men fleeing to Tuzla..[13]
The Tribunal was of the opinion that the Bosnian Serbs eventually intended to kill as many men of combatant age as possible. Although a number of women and children were murdered, together with a relatively large number of older men, the main focus of the VRS was on able-bodied men between the ages of 16 and 60. The buses which transported the women and children were systematically searched for men. Some, although very few, exceptions were made. They included the casualties in Bratunac hospital who had previously been treated in the Dutchbat compound at Potocari. In these cases, it seems as though the Bosnian Serbs were doing their best not to attract international attention, particularly when Dutchbat personnel were present and observing the proceedings.[14]
A key question is that of where the idea of the mass murders emerged, and where the detailed planning and execution of the plan took place. Given the scale of the atrocities, the decisions must have been made at the Drina Corps level, with the Zvornik Brigade in particular being implicated in much of the planning and subsequent action. All the marks of a well-planned military operation were present. Logistic preparations had to be made: firing squads and bulldozers had to be moved to the execution sites. Digging machines were already readily available throughout the area in question, but those used in the bauxite mines were not actually deployed in burying the executed Muslims.[15] Without detailed planning, it would not have been possible to slaughter so many people in such a systematic manner and in such a short time - the period between 13 and 17 of July. However, the fact that Krstic and many units of the Drina Corps were concentrating on Zepa at that time seems to contradict the hypothesis that this corps was the instigator of the murders. In this case, it would have been the various specialist units which did not form part of the Drina Corps - the Special Police and the 65th Regiment, for example - who were responsible for the initial executions. In the case of the 65th Regiment, revenge could have been a significant motive in that fourteen days earlier the regiment had been the target of an ABiH action launched from Srebrenica during the attack on Visnjica. According to the ABiH, the attack had claimed more than 40 casualties among the VRS, possibly as many as 71.[16]
The Specijalna Brigada Policije (Special Police Brigade) had been formed in 1992 as a unit falling under the direct command of the Ministry of Home Affairs of the Republika Srpska (MUP). It was intended to provide support to the regular police in the form of anti-terrorist units and riot squads which would intervene in the event of any disruption of public order or a hostage situation. It would also provide personal protection to politicians, including Karadzic. This could be regarded as its 'peacetime' role. In the wartime situation, the Special Police Brigade became an elite fighting unit, taking part in the vast majority of VRS campaigns. The brigade was then under the operational control of the VRS itself. However, relationships with the VRS were poor, largely as a result of the tensions between the political leaders and the senior military officers.[17] Nevertheless, VRS units were actively involved in the executions. In particular, the Zvornik Brigade played a significant part. From 14 July onwards, this unit was involved in laying ambushes for the column on the road to Tuzla. One day earlier, it had started to seek out suitable locations in which to detain and eventually execute its prisoners.[18]
Although General Krstic was the de facto Commander of the operations against Srebrenica and the subsequent actions, General Zivanovic was formally in command of the Drina Corps until the afternoon of 13 July. Zivanovic did not enjoy a high reputation as a successful officer, which may well have been the reason that Krstic was put in charge of the Srebrenica operation. On 20 July, Karadzic promoted Zivanovic from Major General to Lieutenant General, to mark his early retirement from the military.[19]
Zivanovic actually came from Srebrenica, and Mladic is said to have asked him whose side he was on. According to one Bosnian Serb source, Zivanovic contacted the hospital at Milici prior to the attack on Srebrenica and instructed staff to keep a large number of beds free for the patients from Srebrenica.[20] It has been claimed that Zivanovic took early retirement because he did not wish to collaborate in any programme of mass murder. However, there is little evidence to support this notion: his retirement had been announced some time previously.[21] Furthermore, there is little doubt concerning Zivanovic's opinions of the Muslims. When the fall of Srebrenica was commemorated in Tuzla in 1996, Zivanovic was in Bratunac where he reminded the families of VRS troops of the purpose of the ethnic cleansing of Serbian territory: ‘Our policy is crystal clear, there is no life for Turks here’.[22]
Interviewed by the NIOD, Zivanovic did not deny that a mass murder had taken place, nor that it was an action organized by the VRS. He cited revenge as a motive. Another explanation which Zivanovic offered for the mass murder was that it was a deliberate action on the part of only a few officers on the field who were supporters of General Manojlo Milovanovic, formerly the VRS Chief of General Staff. These officers, claimed Zivanovic, carried out the executions without the prior knowledge of Mladic, the aim being to discredit Mladic himself. Colonel Beara, the security officer of the General Staff, was named as the prime mover. Zivanovic sought to absolve Mladic from any blame for the killings, and placed responsibility squarely at the feet of Krstic.[23] However, this version of events does not stand up to close scrutiny since Mladic was seen in person at a number of the execution sites. Had he been against the killings, he was certainly in a position to prevent them. The statement made by Zivanovic, an interested party, must be viewed with suspicion. The question of where responsibilities actually lay is considered in greater detail later in this chapter.
http://213.222.3.5/srebrenica/
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The antiwar site selectively takes portions of comprehensive studies and reports that suits their agenda while leaving out the parts that detract from their agenda and neglect to inform readers of the overall conclusions and findings of these reports. Typical ...
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Retro ...
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Dec-09-2004 14:03
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MisterOpus1
Grumpy Old Fart
Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Kansas City
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Who is this Occrider guy? What an idiot! He's only a Junior Tranceaddict, which means he knows absolutely nothing! He looks just like that lying propaganda dude from Iraq, so he himself must also be a liar, AND it comes as no surprise since he's just a part of the Jewish news propaganda machine.
Oh, and he's Jewish too!
I mean seriously, how much easier can it be to dismiss this guy? Next!
(hehe, I take a quick leave of absence and I miss all the hubub!).
___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...
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Dec-09-2004 17:52
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DrUg_Tit0
e^(i*pi)+1=0
Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
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Dec-09-2004 21:32 
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