quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley But its not just her that said that is it? The Americans claim they took out the engine...does that car look like it has had its engine blown out by machine gun fire as the American's claim?

They did take out the engine block; thats standard protocol.
It's actually the jounalist's claim that a hail of bullets came at her.
Seriously, if a machine gun was used indiscriminately do we really think the car would look like that??

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Also, why has that car not appeared in any of the major newspapers or major news channels?

Good question.
Maybe facts just aren't sensational enough...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r They did take out the engine block; thats standard protocol. It's actually the jounalist's claim that a hail of bullets came at her. Seriously, if a machine gun was used indiscriminately do we really think the car would look like that??

No thats the point, it doesn't look like a machine gun has been used indiscriminantly on the car, which conflicts both what Sgrena said and what the Americans have said...that car has not been hit at all! you even say yourself the Americans took the engine out! What did you mean? Lifted the bonnet up and unscrewed it?! That car has not been fired on, it has not "had its engine taken out" and that directly conflicts with what the Americans have said, never mind what Sgrena said!

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Good question. Maybe facts just aren't sensational enough...

Or maybe that is not the car Sgrena was traveling in (apparently they were driving a 4x4)

Well, the car certainly didn't get hit by 300 bullets, but it did get hit with several, two or three of which have penetrated the windshield. But then, automatic weapons aren't that precise, so when you're shooting at something that's, say, 100 meters away, most of your bullets will miss the target, especially if it's moving fast.

But that's totally irrelevant here. It doesn't really matter whether it was just one bullet or 300 bullets hitting the car. The problem is why the car got hit at all. Hopefully the investigation will answer that one, but it's obvious that someone screwed up big here.

The thing is, though, that we only heard about this incident because it was italians involved, and especially because one of them was a hostage newswriter. It makes you wonder how many such incidents happen on daily bases that we don't hear about at all. That number of Iraqi civilian casualties is constantly rising, yet the suicide bombings don't fully account for that number. It seems that many deaths are also a direct result of american shootouts. Personally, I can mostly understand those footsoldiers who do the actual accidental shootings, they're totally nervous because terrorists strike at them every day. Yet if I was an Iraqi, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have as much understanding for them, especially if they killed someone close to me. It's a sort of a feedback loop, whenever americans kill someone who's not a terrorist, that generates a few more terrorists. New terrorists make americans more nervous and more likely to shoot non terrorists. Overall, those damn Iraqis just can't realize the great prosperity that this invasion has brought them and instead of being happy more and more of them become terrorists.

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1+1=10

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Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 The thing is, though, that we only heard about this incident because it was italians involved, and especially because one of them was a hostage newswriter. It makes you wonder how many such incidents happen on daily bases that we don't hear about at all. That number of Iraqi civilian casualties is constantly rising, yet the suicide bombings don't fully account for that number. It seems that many deaths are also a direct result of american shootouts. Personally, I can mostly understand those footsoldiers who do the actual accidental shootings, they're totally nervous because terrorists strike at them every day. Yet if I was an Iraqi, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have as much understanding for them, especially if they killed someone close to me. It's a sort of a feedback loop, whenever americans kill someone who's not a terrorist, that generates a few more terrorists. New terrorists make americans more nervous and more likely to shoot non terrorists. Overall, those damn Iraqis just can't realize the great prosperity that this invasion has brought them and instead of being happy more and more of them become terrorists.

i so agree with that. Is there even any data on how many civilians that american soldiers have killed?

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Originally posted by JM so what you're telling me, they wasted 399 bullets? only to think my taxpayer $$$ goes towards those wasted bullets. if they were trained how to shoot, it would have taken only 1 bullet... >JM<

first off, if they wanted to kill the occupants of the car, they wouldve. I do believe that they shot at the engine block to disable the vehicle. Secondly, the italians were on their way to an airport to fly back to Italy. What makes one think that there wouldn't be soldiers and checkpoints surrounding it? Clearly, the Italians shouldve made a lil bit more effort to make everyone aware that they were coming. Lastly, when soldiers with guns tell me to stop, I stop. What makes them think that the soldiers would know that they dont have a bomb in the trunk.

Its tragic that a hero lost his life, but in a region with suicide bombers, they shouldve thought twice about trying to drive up to the soldiers like James Bond.

___________________
When you start to criticize the times you live in, your time is over. ~Karl Lagerfeld

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Originally posted by Greedy first off, if they wanted to kill the occupants of the car, they wouldve. I do believe that they shot at the engine block to disable the vehicle. Secondly, the italians were on their way to an airport to fly back to Italy. What makes one think that there wouldn't be soldiers and checkpoints surrounding it? Clearly, the Italians shouldve made a lil bit more effort to make everyone aware that they were coming. Lastly, when soldiers with guns tell me to stop, I stop. What makes them think that the soldiers would know that they dont have a bomb in the trunk. Its tragic that a hero lost his life, but in a region with suicide bombers, they shouldve thought twice about trying to drive up to the soldiers like James Bond.

Well the thing is that conflicts with Sgrena's versions of events. Your just rolling out the American version (not saying that is wrong, we dont know which version is correct) but Sgrena says there were no check points, no asking to stop, no speeding and no warning shots. Wasn't there another Italian agent in the car with her? The driver wasn't it? I'd be interested to hear his version of events (altho if what Sgrena says is true, I doubt we'll hear about it as that would damage Berlesconi's domestic position)

Alright, let's try and dispense with the American military version vs. the Sgrena version of events right now. This is no longer just Sgrena - this is the entire fucking Italian government now!. Berlusconi is outright calling the Americans fucking liars, which I realize is very difficult for some of you neocons here to grasp. I think occasionally our version of events over there in Iraq tend to be a bit stretched at times.

Emphasis mine throughout:

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Italian Leader Says U.S. Knew of Rescue Plan Berlusconi Delineates Mission to Free Reporter By Alan Cooperman and Walter Pincus Washington Post Staff Writers Thursday, March 10, 2005; Page A12 ROME, March 9 -- U.S. military officials in Iraq had approved an Italian intelligence officer's mission to free a kidnapped journalist and were expecting their arrival at Baghdad's airport on Friday when U.S. soldiers opened fire on the Italians at a checkpoint, Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said Wednesday. In a speech, Berlusconi provided new details of how the Italians worked over the past month to free journalist Giuliani Sgrena from her Iraqi kidnappers, only to have the effort end in the death of the Italian intelligence officer who arrived in Baghdad that day to receive her from her captors. The prime minister's remarks, building on a statement Tuesday by Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini, showed that his government is determined to challenge the U.S. version of the Italian's death, which has strained relations between the two countries. Though Berlusconi has come under growing domestic criticism for keeping 2,700 Italian troops in Iraq, his speech drew a standing ovation from opposition senators as well as members of his governing coalition. In the weeks after Sgrena was taken hostage in Baghdad on Feb. 4, Italian intelligence officers worked to identify the kidnappers, determine that she was still alive, locate her and negotiate her release. Along the way, Fini said, information was shared with the U.S. Embassy's hostage working group in Baghdad. Nicola Calipari, a senior intelligence officer familiar with working in Iraq, arrived with a colleague at Baghdad International Airport on Friday. Calipari spent 40 minutes contacting U.S. military authorities in charge of the airport to notify them of his mission and receive a safe-conduct document to move around the airport, according to the Italian leaders. Neither Berlusconi nor Fini explained how contact was made with the kidnappers or who they were. But by their account, the two operatives left the airport and, after a two-hour wait in a Toyota Corolla near the Mansour district of Baghdad, were approached by a green van and led through various parts of the city. At an unlit area, the van stopped, the driver pointed to an abandoned car and drove off. Sgrena was inside the car, dressed in black and blindfolded. Calipari put the journalist in the back seat of the car and, with his colleague driving, they headed toward the airport, where a plane was waiting to take them back to Italy. With the inside light on, Calipari sat alongside Sgrena and made phone calls to superiors to report his success. One was to an Italian official who was standing next to an American colonel at the airport, the prime minister said Wednesday, addressing the Italian Senate. Calipari "therefore warned the American military officials of their immediate arrival in the airport zone," Berlusconi said. "Only a frank and reciprocal recognition of final responsibility" will assuage Italians' anguish over the shooting, "which was so irrational to us," Berlusconi said. U.S. Army Gen. George W. Casey, the top American commander in Iraq, said Tuesday in Washington that he had been unaware on Friday that Italian officials had entered Iraq to rescue Sgrena and said he had heard nothing since to indicate the Italians had told U.S. forces of the car's route.

Gotta stop here for a second. So the top U.S. General was made unaware. Okay, well it seems clear that the Americans were, in fact, contacted, lest the entire Italian government and military intelligence is lying at this point (Berlusconi is one of our staunchest allies in this war, mind you). We can only conclude the following then:

1. The U.S. General is full of shit
2. The U.S. General wasn't contacted, which only verifies how poor our communications are in this war and the fault still becomes ours
3. Berlusconi and Italian intelligence are full of shit.

Take your pick. Onward:

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In a statement after the shooting, the Army's 3rd Infantry Division said the Italians' car was "traveling at high speeds" and refused to halt at a checkpoint despite attempts by U.S. soldiers to warn the driver to stop "by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car."

So we say they're traveling at high speeds and refused to slow down. Check.

quote:

Fini, citing testimony by the driver, also an intelligence officer, said Tuesday that the car was traveling at no more than 25 mph as the driver steered around concrete blocks. Fini said the driver was applying the brakes when the car was hit by gunfire that lasted 10 to 15 seconds.

And they say we're full of shit. Check.

I might add that given the questionable definition of what we call a "checkpoint", I personally feel that the Italians might have a bit more weight on this one. See here for that.

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A Pentagon spokesman on Wednesday declined to comment on the Italian leaders' accounts on grounds that the matter is under investigation. "The information from the Italians will be considered as part of that investigation," he said. When Sgrena was seized, a radical Web site operated by the Islamic Jihad Organization asserted responsibility and gave Italy 72 hours to withdraw its troops from Iraq. It did not say what would happen to Sgrena if Italy did not comply. The Italians did not know who had seized the journalist. But channels were opened through a variety of sources, including religious organizations and friendly Arab governments, the Italian leaders said. They were seeking, among other things, assurances that the reporter was still alive. On Feb. 16, she was shown in a video sobbing and pleading for her life. The Italians saw the video as a response to their feelers and a sign of progress in identifying her captors. Berlusconi, like Fini, described the shooting as an accident. Italian newspapers have reported that a ransom of $6 million to $8 million was paid for Sgrena's release, but neither leader mentioned any payment. Pincus reported from Washington. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...l?nav=headlines

Side note: Pincus really is a terrific investigative reporter. One of the few remaining out there.

So let's again summarize what we know, as well as throw in a few questions:

-We have the source from Americans that they shot 300-400 bullets into the car

-Do we know for certain that we've even released the right car? I haven't seen any credible evidence that we've done so yet.

-It's not just Sgrena and her Italian intelligence companions that are giving this version of events, BUT BERLUSCONI, who's office was on the phone with them while it occurred. Therefore the Italians have every right to be pissed and question what exactly occurred.

-I've seen this premise a few times already by the neocons and the like: If the U.S. wanted to kill them they could have. I'm sorry but that doesn't hold any water, and here's why:

1. They could have missed their target (intentionally or unintentionally - we won't ever know).
2. They maybe wanted to spare someone for questioning (since our intelligence in Iraq at this point is pretty piss poor still).
3. They did try to kill her but she was shielded by the dead guy's body who gave his life to protect her (bodies do make good bullet shields, BTW)

-We cut the lines from the Italian military office to Berlusconi's office. The obvious question is why?

-We KNEW they were coming, period. No fucking "buts" about this. We even had an American officer waiting with an Italian officer at the fucking airport, so how the fuck could we not have known? If there were a few individuals like the top general not knowing of the Italians' presence coming, that only indicates our fucking poor communications there. Either way we were negligent, and it doesn't look good.

-Why was there a checkpoint there in the first place? Well according to our intelligence, it was set up to give extra security to our U.S. Ambassador, John "Death Squad" Negroponte, whom we do not know whether or not he even passed on that road:

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/int...ly-Hostage.html

Interesting tidbit from the above article:

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"The mobile patrol was there to enhance security because Ambassador Negroponte was expected through," embassy spokesman Robert Callahan said, confirming a report that first appeared in the Italian newspaper La Repubblica. It was not known if Negroponte, who was nominated last month by President Bush to be the new director of national intelligence, passed through the checkpoint before the shooting. Senior U.S. officials usually travel by helicopter to avoid attacks in Iraq, but methods are varied so as not to be predictable.

"Usually travel by helicopter". Actually they are travelling almost exclusively by air now - evolving strategy to avoid ambushes and roadside bombs (strangely similar to what we did in Vietnam, but I digress). And they can't answer whether or not Negroponte went down that road.

Sounding a bit fishy yet? Even if we were to accept the premise that we beefed up security for Negroponte - we still knew Sgrena was coming. But the fact that it was "supposedly" beefed up for Death Squad Negroponte is either another outright lie or even a bit more revealing, given the history of Negroponte himself.

I guess you could say I think we're full of shit, once again. I'm not entirely ready to jump off the boat and claim that our actions were the direct result of Sgrena being a far-Left liberal writer and/or Italy giving money to terrorists for her release which directly counters our policy (and ultimately hurts our cause against the terrorists). There could very well be the element of our neglegence involved as well - this is a running theme with the U.S. military and intelligence throughout this war. Either way I don't buy our story one bit.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

hehe good post opus, thanks

This isn't looking good for the U.S. of A. New stuff just keeps coming out.

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well according to La Republica, dated 11MAR05, we get some insight into the extent of what senior ground commanders, foreign and domestic, knew and did not know and what did not get turned over.

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US unaware of details of Italian operation to free journalist in Iraq : report (AFP) 11 March 2005 ROME - The United States was only partially informed about an Italian intelligence operation to free journalist Giuliana Sgrena in Iraq, an Italian general said in a report quoted by La Repubblica newspaper Friday. General Mario Marioli, deputy commander of the US-led international coalition force in Iraq, had been asked to prepare an unspecified mission by Italy’s top intelligence officer in Iraq, Nicola Calipari, said the paper. The agent died under US fire near Baghdad airport on February 4, as he was escorting the freed Italian correspondent to safety. Quoting from a report by Marioli to magistrates investigating Calipari’s death, La Repubblica said the general provided documents for the intelligence officer and his aide to move around freely. But he did not know details of their operation in Baghdad, according to his report. Italian military intelligence informed him late on February 4 that Calipari and his aide would return to Baghdad airport in the company of “an Italian national without a coalition and airport pass”. It was not clear if Marioli knew at this stage that Sgrena was the unidentified passenger. Marioli was tasked with asking US military officials to grant access to the airport to an Italian national traveling with two officials already identified earlier in the day, said La Repubblica. “This was an exchange of information between the military,” said the paper. “Marioli had no contact with US intelligence officers.” “The US chain of command had only bits of information.... According to his report General Marioli could not give the Americans the make (a Toyota Corolla), the color (light grey), or the Iraqi license plate,” said La Repubblica quoting from the report. “He could not do so because he didn’t know and because any problem seemed to be resolved after the main checkpoint had been notified,” it added. The car carrying Sgrena and the Italian agents ran into a hail of gunfire by a US patrol around 700 meters (yards) from Baghdad airport, killing Calipari and wounding Sgrena and the other agent. The patrol had reportedly been tasked with securing the passage of US Ambassador to Iraq John Negroponte.