Well, I don't really find that article convincing as I know Iranians from Iran and thats not how they describe things over there at all. I agree that alot of the youth likes aspects of American pop culture and American entertainment but from what my friends/acquaintances tell me they're not willing to adopt American/western values. Anyways, I really feel like I'm repeating myself now.

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"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Nom it's very relavent how he obtained those weapons. Stop ignoring facts. And for the last time, WITH US SUPPORT. The US resumed diplomatic relations with him right after he did it so stfu and go do some real research before you embarass yourself again. The US/UK have no fucking athourity to use military force to impose a system on goverment on a sovereign nation. This war is just plain theft and facism. You might not give a fuck about the human cost of this war but the Iraqis do. Iraq Body Count: Min 21,705 Max 24,628 >link< Go around Iraq and ask the people if they want US military presence there, bombing the shit out of thier country and killing thousands of innocent people, raping and torturing innocent people (the prison abuses just being one story that mannaged to find it way into mainstream media). Get this through your head: The Iraqi ppl don't want any of you there. Neigther do they want another puppet goverment.

thanks for the inside info there about where he got his weapons from..the us you say? interesting.

it would be foolish to suggest that the troops leave now. they need to stay till the place has some sense of order about it.

regardless of whther the people want the troops there,, il bet they wanted rid of saddam. theyve got that, and the troops there are the other side of that coin.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Well, I don't really find that article convincing as I know Iranians from Iran and thats not how they describe things over there at all. I agree that alot of the youth likes aspects of American pop culture and American entertainment but from what my friends/acquaintances tell me they're not willing to adopt American/western values. Anyways, I really feel like I'm repeating myself now.

Well Iran is an extreme case (and I think thats why that article used it) but what it comes down to is do you think the people in the Middle East would prefer an Islamist theocracy or western liberal democracy?

I have seen nothing to suggest that the Islamists are in any way a majority...

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Originally posted by George Smiley Well Iran is an extreme case (and I think thats why that article used it) but what it comes down to is do you think the people in the Middle East would prefer an Islamist theocracy or western liberal democracy?

Well, I can't really say which one they'd prefer as opinions vary. They definetly don't want the current corrupt and oppressive goverments, secular or not. I also think weather they want Sharia (properly implemented and re-interpreted so it's appropriate for our times, not 700 AD Arabia) or a non-secular Goverment (wheather it's more democratic or socialist) varies depending on which country you go to aswell. So it's not a simple question. But they DEFINETLY don't want outside involvement since (wheather you agree or not) they feel has never really helped them(and IMO rightly so).They have little faith in the West when it comes to intervention(especially military) in the region.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley I have seen nothing to suggest that the Islamists are in any way a majority...

And yes, in most areas where people are more educated (and even many areas where people aren't) they definetly don't want the fanatics running the show eigther.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by tamk this fanticism is no worse than the US's fanatical war against communisim in latin america, or other places. how many people died there?

Was regarding religious fanaticism, not cultural or political.


A bit busy so excuse me if I don't reply back to all your replies.

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quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Ok, I'll give you a small example, drinking and clubbing. Not exactly very compatible with their religious values.

Drinking and clubbing are not values, and they are not representative of an entire western culture. What they represent are habits of western teenagers/young adults. And I'm not convinced that youth in the east aren't engaging in similar activities, even if it's drinking gasoline and playing the sitar while they smoke their opium.

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Drinking and clubbing are not values, and they are not representative of an entire western culture. What they represent are habits of western teenagers/young adults. And I'm not convinced that youth in the east aren't engaging in similar activities, even if it's drinking gasoline and playing the sitar while they smoke their opium.

Ok, let me elaborate on that one. It's not tabu like it is in Muslim culture (i.e. their values are different).

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by BadBadNeil Was regarding religious fanaticism, not cultural or political.

Neil, fanatacism is fanatacism, wheather it's religous, cultural or political.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Yes, but in this context we are talking explicitly about a specific religious group and their fanaticism in relation to other religious groups and their fanaticism not about the fanaticism of athletics or politics vs. religion. If so you open the doors to say everyone on the planet is a fanatic in some fashion.

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