quote:

Originally posted by LiquidX Well bunch of Iraquis are saying that they would rather have Saddam instead of a chaotic civil war.

Now, which Iraqis are you asking?

I would join the army to defend my country but not to invade another country. Fact is that arabic countries do not allow women in the army. On the other hand Hezbollah has also women in their army at the battlefield so maybe there is more perspective for this women who wants to join the army.

quote:

Originally posted by LiquidX Well bunch of Iraquis are saying that they would rather have Saddam instead of a chaotic civil war.

That is true many iraqies rather to have sadam than this civil war.
I m not from Iraq but I agree with them either. Saddam wasn t that bad ...comparing to this US army who are making their porn fatasies reality like abu graib and more examples.And how many ppl are killed since the US have invaded Iraq? thousands of ppl
And if saddam have stead just a few hundred ppl would have died in his secret prisons.So I think the answer is clear

quote:

Originally posted by Dunya That is true many iraqies rather to have sadam than this civil war. I m not from Iraq but I agree with them either. Saddam wasn t that bad ...comparing to this US army who are making their porn fatasies reality like abu graib and more examples.And how many ppl are killed since the US have invaded Iraq? thousands of ppl And if saddam have stead just a few hundred ppl would have died in his secret prisons.So I think the answer is clear

You have to be kidding me that Saddam Hussein only killed a few hundred in his secret prisons and nationwide. I'm no supporter of this war, but come on. Oh, and America's porn fantasies...I love how everyone likes to take the actions of a few and makes them the actions of all American soldiers. If you would follow our news about how these soldiers were disciplined, you'd realize that the ringleader of that scandal got 10 years in federal prison and 5 others were incarcerated as well.

If your "facts" were true, you're right, the answer would be clear, but they're not.

Edit: Here are facts

quote:

-In 1988, the Hussein regime began a campaign of extermination against the Kurdish people living in Northern Iraq. This is known as the Anfal campaign. The attacks resulted in the death of at least 50,000 (some reports estimate as many as 100,000 people), many of them women and children. A team of Human Rights Watch investigators determined, after analyzing eighteen tons of captured Iraqi documents, testing soil samples and carrying out interviews with more than 350 witnesses, that the attacks on the Kurdish people were characterized by gross violations of human rights, including mass executions and disappearances of many tens of thousands of noncombatants, widespread use of chemical weapons including Sarin, mustard gas and nerve agents that killed thousands, the arbitrary imprisoning of tens of thousands of women, children, and elderly people for months in conditions of extreme deprivation, forced displacement of hundreds of thousands of villagers after the demolition of their homes, and the wholesale destruction of nearly two thousand villages along with their schools, mosques, farms, and power stations. -In April 1991, after Saddam lost control of Kuwait in the Gulf War, he cracked down ruthlessly against uprisings in the Kurdish north and the Shia south. His forces committed wholesale massacres and other gross human rights violations against both groups similar to the violations mentioned before. Estimates of deaths during that time range from 40,000 to 100,000 for Kurds, and 60,000 to 130,000 for Shi'ites.

Source

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

Last edited by Groundhog Boy on Aug-04-2006 at 15:44

quote:

Originally posted by Groundhog Boy You have to be kidding me that Saddam Hussein only killed a few hundred in his secret prisons and nationwide. I'm no supporter of this war, but come on. Oh, and America's porn fantasies...I love how everyone likes to take the actions of a few and makes them the actions of all American soldiers. If you would follow our news about how these soldiers were disciplined, you'd realize that the ringleader of that scandal got 10 years in federal prison and 5 others were incarcerated as well. If your "facts" were true, you're right, the answer would be clear, but they're not. Edit: Here are facts Source

I didn't said that he killed just a few hundreds I mean during this time that the US is occupying Iraq he would just killed a few hundreds comparing to the americanes->how many were killed in just a couple of years thousends that's a record and I didn' talk about the bombs every day who kills 50 ppl almost each day. Oh boy and Abu graib wasn't the only scandle of the US

http://www.americanchronicle.com/ar...articleID=11375

And those scandles have terrible impact on America's international image..abu graib,guatanomobay afghanistan they make deals with the zionist to transport all kind of weapons in any situation even in a war against lebanon and I didn't talk about the palestines...and then they are saying that Iran should stop making uranium? Feel sorry for the citizens of the US with a goverment like this.

quote:

Originally posted by Groundhog Boy You have to be kidding me that Saddam Hussein only killed a few hundred in his secret prisons and nationwide. I'm no supporter of this war, but come on. Oh, and America's porn fantasies...I love how everyone likes to take the actions of a few and makes them the actions of all American soldiers. If you would follow our news about how these soldiers were disciplined, you'd realize that the ringleader of that scandal got 10 years in federal prison and 5 others were incarcerated as well. If your "facts" were true, you're right, the answer would be clear, but they're not. Edit: Here are facts Source

Good points right there.

Glad to see your back

quote:

Originally posted by Dunya I didn't said that he killed just a few hundreds I mean during this time that the US is occupying Iraq he would just killed a few hundreds comparing to the americanes->how many were killed in just a couple of years thousends that's a record and I didn' talk about the bombs every day who kills 50 ppl almost each day. Oh boy and Abu graib wasn't the only scandle of the US http://www.americanchronicle.com/ar...articleID=11375 And those scandles have terrible impact on America's international image..abu graib,guatanomobay afghanistan they make deals with the zionist to transport all kind of weapons in any situation even in a war against lebanon and I didn't talk about the palestines...and then they are saying that Iran should stop making uranium? Feel sorry for the citizens of the US with a goverment like this.

The argument can be made that long term, the deaths still would have been higher under Saddam. That is, if we can end this mess over there sometime soon, which isn't looking likely. To be honest, I didn't like this war from the start and thought it was poorly planned out. I think we're seeing that is true. I'm almost in favor of cutting Iraq up into a couple of democracies so that more people will get the rule that they want. The problem is that the sectarian violence is causing us to stay longer. The country's either on the brink or already begun a civil war. They're killing each other more than the Americans are killing them. I will agree that more Sunnis are dying now than under Saddam, but I don't think we're even coming close to the numbers of Shia or Kurds that would have died had he not been removed.

Oh, and believe me, I hate the scandals. I hate how our government continues to make us look bad by not condemning torture and trying to find loopholes around international law. You'll see my past posts in here bitching about that long ago. It disgusts me and I'm glad that the people who were involved were punished. I hope this Haditha incident, if it's found that it was committed in cold blood against civilians, is prosecuted, too. I also have no sympathy for those guys in the story that you linked about the 14 year-old getting raped and killed and I hope they're dealt with severely.

That said, this sort of behavior is only making us look bad because of our open media outlets. In a lot of other countries, this material would never have been leaked out and published or people would be dead. Can you imagine similar photos of torture leaking out under Saddam's rule? Not hardly. It may make us look bad, but at least it isn't hidden, it's punished and hopefully serves as an example to our soldiers of how they will be dealt with if it's done again. There are over 100,000 troops over there, and it pisses most Americans off that this .01% is making the other 99.99% look bad. I have friends from high school who have spent time in Iraq and when this topic was brought up in talking with them, they fully supported disciplining these blights to the fullest extent, because they weren't like that and the overwhelming majority of their fellow soldiers weren't either.

quote:

Originally posted by Kapedan Glad to see your back

I didn't go anywhere. I just haven't been posting as much as I don't really have a lot to say about Israel-Lebanon, which has been dominating conversation lately. Neither side's supporters are very open to any sort of re-evaluation of their arguments, so what's the point?

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

i]Originally posted by Groundhog Boy [/i]
The argument can be made that long term, the deaths still would have been higher under Saddam. That is, if we can end this mess over there sometime soon, which isn't looking likely. To be honest, I didn't like this war from the start and thought it was poorly planned out. I think we're seeing that is true. I'm almost in favor of cutting Iraq up into a couple of democracies so that more people will get the rule that they want. The problem is that the sectarian violence is causing us to stay longer. The country's either on the brink or already begun a civil war. They're killing each other more than the Americans are killing them. I will agree that more Sunnis are dying now than under Saddam, but I don't think we're even coming close to the numbers of Shia or Kurds that would have died had he not been removed.

quote:

I mean totally iraqies are iraqies shia sunna or kurds, the total numbers of ppl who would have died under saddam would be less more than what's happening now. Actually I do not agree with you the US shouldn't go away and leave the mess. First they should clean up the mess before they go.

Oh, and believe me, I hate the scandals. I hate how our government continues to make us look bad by not condemning torture and trying to find loopholes around international law. You'll see my past posts in here bitching about that long ago. It disgusts me and I'm glad that the people who were involved were punished. I hope this Haditha incident, if it's found that it was committed in cold blood against civilians, is prosecuted, too. I also have no sympathy for those guys in the story that you linked about the 14 year-old getting raped and killed and I hope they're dealt with severely.

quote:

Well the most of them are not punished and if tehy have punished 5 years 10 years who is talking about a few years if they did this crime in the USA they would get the death penalty. And what I linked is just an example of many cases.

That said, this sort of behavior is only making us look bad because of our open media outlets. In a lot of other countries, this material would never have been leaked out and published or people would be dead. Can you imagine similar photos of torture leaking out under Saddam's rule? Not hardly. It may make us look bad, but at least it isn't hidden, it's punished and hopefully serves as an example to our soldiers of how they will be dealt with if it's done again. There are over 100,000 troops over there, and it pisses most Americans off that this .01% is making the other 99.99% look bad. I have friends from high school who have spent time in Iraq and when this topic was brought up in talking with them, they fully supported disciplining these blights to the fullest extent, because they weren't like that and the overwhelming majority of their fellow soldiers weren't either.

quote:

Open media don't say that 2 hard, all the pics from abu graib was just a fault of one of the soldiers. Your goverment was arguing how this could happen.I see nothing about Qana in the US media. And in some areas in Iraq it's forbidden to take pics because they learned their lessons since Vietnam what the consequences could be for the public opinion.And about the 0.1% that is weak argument because most of the soldiers have a poor background. Most of them from the getto and poor areas. They are scared because they are young and have no experience. And because they are afraid they will shoot much faster than a trained soldier.Your goverment don't care if they are trained or not because they had and still have a shortfall.

I didn't go anywhere. I just haven't been posting as much as I don't really have a lot to say about Israel-Lebanon, which has been dominating conversation lately. Neither side's supporters are very open to any sort of re-evaluation of their arguments, so what's the point?

Last edited by Dunya on Aug-04-2006 at 18:32

quote:

Originally posted by Dunya i]Originally posted by Groundhog Boy [/i] The argument can be made that long term, the deaths still would have been higher under Saddam. That is, if we can end this mess over there sometime soon, which isn't looking likely. To be honest, I didn't like this war from the start and thought it was poorly planned out. I think we're seeing that is true. I'm almost in favor of cutting Iraq up into a couple of democracies so that more people will get the rule that they want. The problem is that the sectarian violence is causing us to stay longer. The country's either on the brink or already begun a civil war. They're killing each other more than the Americans are killing them. I will agree that more Sunnis are dying now than under Saddam, but I don't think we're even coming close to the numbers of Shia or Kurds that would have died had he not been removed. I mean totally iraqies are iraqies shia sunna or kurds, the total numbers of ppl who would have died under saddam would be less more than what's happening now. Actually I do not agree with you the US shouldn't go away and leave the mess. First they should clean up the mess before they go. Oh, and believe me, I hate the scandals. I hate how our government continues to make us look bad by not condemning torture and trying to find loopholes around international law. You'll see my past posts in here bitching about that long ago. It disgusts me and I'm glad that the people who were involved were punished. I hope this Haditha incident, if it's found that it was committed in cold blood against civilians, is prosecuted, too. I also have no sympathy for those guys in the story that you linked about the 14 year-old getting raped and killed and I hope they're dealt with severely. Well the most of them are not punished and if tehy have punished 5 years 10 years who is talking about a few years if they did this crime in the USA they would get the death penalty. And what I linked is just an example of many cases. That said, this sort of behavior is only making us look bad because of our open media outlets. In a lot of other countries, this material would never have been leaked out and published or people would be dead. Can you imagine similar photos of torture leaking out under Saddam's rule? Not hardly. It may make us look bad, but at least it isn't hidden, it's punished and hopefully serves as an example to our soldiers of how they will be dealt with if it's done again. There are over 100,000 troops over there, and it pisses most Americans off that this .01% is making the other 99.99% look bad. I have friends from high school who have spent time in Iraq and when this topic was brought up in talking with them, they fully supported disciplining these blights to the fullest extent, because they weren't like that and the overwhelming majority of their fellow soldiers weren't either. Open media don't say that 2 hard, all the pics from abu graib was just a fault of one of the soldiers. Your goverment was arguing how this could happen.I see nothing about Qana in the US media. And in some areas in Iraq it's forbidden to take pics because they learned their lessons since Vietnam what the consequences could be for the public opinion.And about the 0.1% that is weak argument because most of the soldiers have a poor background. Most of them from the getto and poor areas. They are scared because they are young and have no experience. And because they are afraid they will shoot much faster than a trained soldier.Your goverment don't care if they are trained or not because they had and still have a shortfall. I didn't go anywhere. I just haven't been posting as much as I don't really have a lot to say about Israel-Lebanon, which has been dominating conversation lately. Neither side's supporters are very open to any sort of re-evaluation of their arguments, so what's the point?

Please fix the quotes, this is really hard to read. Then I'll respond.

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

quote:

Originally posted by Groundhog Boy the deaths still would have been higher under Saddam.

Then how high do you want it to be?

39,000+ Dead civilians 2500 Coalition casualties

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by Groundhog Boy I didn't go anywhere. I just haven't been posting as much as I don't really have a lot to say about Israel-Lebanon, which has been dominating conversation lately. Neither side's supporters are very open to any sort of re-evaluation of their arguments, so what's the point?

Ah allright, sorry then man. Glad to see you posting again though.