quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 no thats neutralizing it. if i wish you a merry christmas, just feel free to respond with happy chunukah or whatever your tradition happens to say for example.

but I wouldn't be wishing you a happy chunukah if I knew you were christian.
and likewise if i was jewish (I'm not) and you knew it, having you tell me merry christmas insinuates that it would mean something to me.

If I knew you were christian and I was only speaking to you then yes, of course I would wish you a merry christmas, in this day and age though you can't guarentee that saying that would mean the same to everyone... so for people I don't know so well, I'd wish them happy holidays.

What's really so wrong with finding a neutral middle ground for all faiths to be included?
Happy holidays has your bases covered in a context that includes everyone celebrating anything during that season.

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Dave (aka: Upgrade- live pa)

quote:

Originally posted by Lightshow i wear sunglasses for the same reason everybody wears them in a club. 1: people look cool in sunglasses 2: it gets awefully bright as the night progresses

*nusty does not wear sunglasses at night, they make it hard to see and you could trip

quote:

Originally posted by nusty but I wouldn't be wishing you a happy chunukah if I knew you were christian. and likewise if i was jewish (I'm not) and you knew it, having you tell me merry christmas insinuates that it would mean something to me. If I knew you were christian and I was only speaking to you then yes, of course I would wish you a merry christmas, in this day and age though you can't guarentee that saying that would mean the same to everyone... so for people I don't know so well, I'd wish them happy holidays. What's really so wrong with finding a neutral middle ground for all faiths to be included? Happy holidays has your bases covered in a context that includes everyone celebrating anything during that season.

If im not jewish and yet someone still wished me happy chunukah id smile and say merry christmas.

Why should a greeting of warmth and good cheer be offensive? HOW Could it be offensive? If a message of good wishes is offensive to somone then the problem is not with the message, it's with the receiver of that message.

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quote:

Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 If im not jewish and yet someone still wished me happy chunukah id smile and say merry christmas.

If you were Jewish, you would find that people don't wish you Happy Chanukah (which, as an aside, is a completely unimportant holiday on the Jewish calendar -- in many respects made bigger, for kids, by virtue of its proximity to Christmas on the calendar). People don't bother to find out whether you actually celebrate Christmas before wishing you Merry Christmas -- many people just make the assumption that "Merry Christmas" means something to everyone. I also find that when people actually DO know that, for example, you're Jewish, it usually gets acknowledged with a line like "Happy Chanukah or whatever, thats what its called right?" -- doesn't exactly give a warm and fuzzy feeling does it?. So, what's wrong with just saying "Happy Holidays" -- it sure doesn't infringe upon your right to celebrate (regardless of what holiday you're celebrating) within your own family any way you choose.

quote:

Originally posted by JRinger If you were Jewish, you would find that people don't wish you Happy Chanukah (which, as an aside, is a completely unimportant holiday on the Jewish calendar -- in many respects made bigger, for kids, by virtue of its proximity to Christmas on the calendar). People don't bother to find out whether you actually celebrate Christmas before wishing you Merry Christmas -- many people just make the assumption that "Merry Christmas" means something to everyone. I also find that when people actually DO know that, for example, you're Jewish, it usually gets acknowledged with a line like "Happy Chanukah or whatever, thats what its called right?" -- doesn't exactly give a warm and fuzzy feeling does it?. So, what's wrong with just saying "Happy Holidays" -- it sure doesn't infringe upon your right to celebrate (regardless of what holiday you're celebrating) within your own family any way you choose.

Are you saying youd get offended if someone said merry christmas?

I think you should say your tradition unless you know specifically that that person is another religion. In fact in that case i usually would say something like "merry christmas and happy chunukah".

Agaian, if someones wishes of good tidings is offensive to someone else, then the problem is not with the messanger.

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quote:

Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

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Originally posted by nusty oooh can we do it with a holiday bush? lol. I couldn't resist.

LOL, yes, but I get to decorate it!

We can call it the Festivus Bush!

"Festivus, for the Rest of Us"

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http://djchiclet.com

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Originally posted by Jayx1 Are you saying youd get offended if someone said merry christmas? I think you should say your tradition unless you know specifically that that person is another religion. In fact in that case i usually would say something like "merry christmas and happy chunukah". Agaian, if someones wishes of good tidings is offensive to someone else, then the problem is not with the messanger.

First of all, you're oversimplifying the issue with a general statement like "if it's offensive to you, then that's your problem" -- something I notice you have a penchant for doing in many of your 'debates'.

Secondly, no, I didn't say I, personally, would get offended if someone said Merry Christmas -- don't put words in my mouth. Personally, even though I'm Jewish, the whole "Happy Holidays" vs "Merry Christmas" debate doesn't bother me at all -- I really couldn't give a shit either way. But, as a non-Christian, I can understand why some people do make an issue of it. The non-Christian holidays are really trivialized and most people acknowledge them only in some very backhanded way (i.e., "Merry Christmas or whatever..."), while Christmas (and to a lesser extent, Easter) are made into a massive annual event that it's assumed all Canadians should acknowledge.

As a kid, if you don't celebrate Christmas, there is a definite feeling of exclusion around the Christmas season. You can argue till you drop that it's the parents responsibility to educate/explain to their children why they don't celebrate the same things, but the fact is, as a kid the only thing that really matters is "why isn't Santa coming to my house, and why don't I get a boatload of presents like the rest of my friends" -- try explaining that to a 6-year-old and see how far you get. [Again, as an aside, one of the reasons Chanukah has morphed from a blip on the Jewish calendar to a somewhat more celebrated holiday, with gifts, is for the kids in response to Christmas].

While I'll reiterate that the Christmas vs Holidays issue isn't an issue for me personally as an adult, I am a proponent for not celebrating Christmas in public schools to the exclusion of other faith's holidays. Further, I'm willing to play devil's advocate to the issue in general because I can completely understand why some adults do make an issue of it, and don't begrudge them this at all. The whole "it's always been like this -- if you're offended, then that's your problem" argument holds zero water; it's a very weak argument that could be used to justify the status quo in just about anything. Again, I ask what's so wrong with just saying "Happy Holidays" -- it doesn't infringe upon your right to celebrate (regardless of what holiday you're celebrating) within your own family any way you choose.

^^^ True!

When I was little I remember being SO shocked that my classmate didn't celebrate Christmas. "What you don't celebrate Christmas? Why the heck NOT?! What's Chanukah??"

I was REALLY little, ok?

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http://djchiclet.com

But to make up for it, I was always so jealous of the Jewish kids because they got so many moer holidays off!

___________________
http://djchiclet.com

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Originally posted by JRinger As a kid, if you don't celebrate Christmas, there is a definite feeling of exclusion around the Christmas season. You can argue till you drop that it's the parents responsibility to educate/explain to their children why they don't celebrate the same things, but the fact is, as a kid the only thing that really matters is "why isn't Santa coming to my house, and why don't I get a boatload of presents like the rest of my friends" -- try explaining that to a 6-year-old and see how far you get. [Again, as an aside, one of the reasons Chanukah has morphed from a blip on the Jewish calendar to a somewhat more celebrated holiday, with gifts, is for the kids in response to Christmas].

well thats what happens when you live in a country when a majority thinks a different way. What if i went to isreal and had kids? And then i had to explain to them why we didnt celebrate all the jewish holidays? Wouldnt they feel left out? Could you ever honestly see any other society than ours sanitize their culture to cater to others?

If i moved to another country or was a minority in that country id never in a million years dream of demanding that people change their ways to cater to my desires. All i would ask is that people do not discriminate against me based on my being different.

Tolerence does not equal assimilation and just because i demand that we keep our traditions does not mean that i or anyone else is intolerent or insensitive. On the contrary, i think it is those who demand that a society change it's ways to fit them that are being intolerent.

So a Merry Christmas to all no matter who you are.

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quote:

Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

quote:

Originally posted by Chiclet But to make up for it, I was always so jealous of the Jewish kids because they got so many moer holidays off!

yeah meanwhile u dont hear everyone else complaining about that.

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quote:

Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

quote:

Originally posted by JRinger The non-Christian holidays are really trivialized and most people acknowledge them only in some very backhanded way (i.e., "Merry Christmas or whatever..."), while Christmas (and to a lesser extent, Easter) are made into a massive annual event that it's assumed all Canadians should acknowledge.

They're not trivialized on purpose. There's no hidden agenda that trivializes every other holiday besides Christian ones. It just happens naturally because the majority of the people celebrate Christmas.

quote:

Originally posted by JRinger As a kid, if you don't celebrate Christmas, there is a definite feeling of exclusion around the Christmas season. You can argue till you drop that it's the parents responsibility to educate/explain to their children why they don't celebrate the same things, but the fact is, as a kid the only thing that really matters is "why isn't Santa coming to my house, and why don't I get a boatload of presents like the rest of my friends" -- try explaining that to a 6-year-old and see how far you get. [Again, as an aside, one of the reasons Chanukah has morphed from a blip on the Jewish calendar to a somewhat more celebrated holiday, with gifts, is for the kids in response to Christmas].

This has nothing to do with the argument of "Merry Christmas" vs. "Happy Holidays" because Santa is a byproduct of Christmas whether people say Happy Holidays or not. The only way of getting rid of the problem of Jewish kids being jealous of Santa is to get rid of Santa, which kinda gets rid of the gift-giving tradition of Christmas. And if you get rid of that, you might as well scrap Christmas all together.

___________________
I'm the trouble starter, fuckin' instigator.
I'm the fear-addicted, danger illustrated.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 well thats what happens when you live in a country when a majority thinks a different way. What if i went to isreal and had kids? And then i had to explain to them why we didnt celebrate all the jewish holidays? Wouldnt they feel left out? Could you ever honestly see any other society than ours sanitize their culture to cater to others? If i moved to another country or was a minority in that country id never in a million years dream of demanding that people change their ways to cater to my desires. All i would ask is that people do not discriminate against me based on my being different. Tolerence does not equal assimilation and just because i demand that we keep our traditions does not mean that i or anyone else is intolerent or insensitive. On the contrary, i think it is those who demand that a society change it's ways to fit them that are being intolerent. So a Merry Christmas to all no matter who you are.

But we're not talking about moving to Israel are we? We're talking about living in a country that prides itself (and even sells itself) on it's multicultural nature. I'll take issue again with your continued implication that people "moved" here and are demanding change -- millions of people of different faiths have been here for generations (myself included). Furthermore, whether it would be made an issue in any other country really isn't relevant at all -- it IS being made an issue in Canada more and more often, and debate of the issue should revolve around the merits of the issue only.

You still haven't answered my question: What is so wrong with just saying "Happy Holidays" -- it doesn't infringe upon your right to celebrate (regardless of what holiday you're celebrating) within your own family any way you choose.

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 yeah meanwhile u dont hear everyone else complaining about that.

The so-called "extra" holidays are really quite a myth.
True, kids can take the day off school, but guess what? School remains open, and these kids miss out on a day of education, and risk falling behind or having to make up the work in some manner.
True, some adults take the day off work, but there can be pressure not to, and for many non-professional employees who choose to do so anyway, it is often without pay. The firm I work for, like many professional-services firms, encourages their employees to take the day off if they choose, but the time missed at the office essentially has to made up anyway -- I have to bill a certain number of hours per year to meet my goals - I don't receive any offset if I decide to take, say, Yom Kippur off. So, if I choose to take it off, the hours end up getting made up elsewhere during the year.