quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic You do realize that you're generalizing from Israel to the entire west here, don't you? How can *you* criticise others for generalizing from Islamic terrorists to all Muslims?

My point exactly.. I'm well aware of the fact that I'm generalizing the cause here and that's what I'm trying to convey here. But come on you really think that the Israel/Palestinian issue is that big of a deal to settle? It could have been sought out years and ages ago if anyone really did give a flying fuck about it but no.. well what you give is what you get.

As far as the cartoon issue goes.. Call it illogical or whatever but you do have to draw a line between humor and ignorance. People (well most people) know that Muslims take their religion rather seriously and do not have the same kind of mentality regarding religious humor as other people do. Now you draw a cartoon of Muhammad with a bomb on his head and expect Muslims to not get worked up over it? I know there is "Freedom of Speech" but again.. it's one thing to use it and another to abuse it. For example you can't just go and say "FUCK YOU.. YOU stoopid fucking pig" to a cop and not expect to get in trouble for it. Even freedom has its limits and anyone who denies this has to be delusional...

___________________
Music for your Mind

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic You do realize that you're generalizing from Israel to the entire west here, don't you? How can *you* criticise others for generalizing from Islamic terrorists to all Muslims?

yeah...uhh...yes, it's pretty obvious.

quote:

Originally posted by digitul punk It could have been sought out years and ages ago if anyone really did give a flying fuck about it but no..

It might be my old age playing tricks on me here, but I seem to remember that the last two times anyone really gave a flying fuck about this the process was shot down. First by Arafat's pride. Second time by the Palestinians voting a terror organization into power.

quote:

Originally posted by digitul punk Now you draw a cartoon of Muhammad with a bomb on his head and expect Muslims to not get worked up over it?

Nobody have said anything about Muslims shouldn't be angry. What places them into the B category is not really that they get excited about cartoons. It's that they take their anger out on companies, which have nothing to do with Jyllands-posten, and citizens and embassies of a country, whose only offense is that Jyllands-posten is published there. That is retarded.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic You do realize that you're generalizing from Israel to the entire west here, don't you? How can *you* criticise others for generalizing from Islamic terrorists to all Muslims?

He didn't say the "entire" west if you look at his post, he said "western super powers." And there's a distinction between the state and the people. If there was a generalization being made, it certainly wasn't in reference to the entire west, and I seriously doubt he was generalizing about the general populace, but rather the actions of the state.

BTW, you seem somewhat stressed out and irritable lately. I haven't really been following the Muhammad cartoon stuff or much of anything lately (been very busy with school). Have things gotton worse or something over there?

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic It might be my old age playing tricks on me here, but I seem to remember that the last two times anyone really gave a flying fuck about this the process was shot down. First by Arafat's pride. Second time by the Palestinians voting a terror organization into power. Nobody have said anything about Muslims shouldn't be angry. What places them into the B category is not really that they get excited about cartoons. It's that they take their anger out on companies, which have nothing to do with Jyllands-posten, and citizens and embassies of a country, whose only offense is that Jyllands-posten is published there. That is retarded.

+1

When it comes to the cartoons, just because Muslims take thier religion seriously doesn't mean they get a free pass when it comes to freedom of speech.
There are many people in this world that take their religion just as serious so this arguement doesn't hold water.

Remember it wasn't the paper's intent on having this regional article spread (with specific intent I might add) globally by some radical Muslim, throwing a few of his own in there, to cause so much grief.
It is Ahmed Abu Laban who should be hung from the short and curlies.
By taking the cartoons out of the article's intended region and fanning the flames with hoax ones, Ahmed had distorted the articles intent and caused grief worldwide.
AHMED should be in jail and the muslim reaction was wrong, ill informed, and a knee-jerked reaction to something they don't understand; freedom of speech.

[edit] disclaimer: when I refer to 'they' or 'them' I am of course, not refering to Islams or Muslims as a whole, rather those backwater ones whose concept of the world could cover a pewter dish...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

let me put it in nazi devil worshipping language ... oy vey.

___________________
My SpaceMySpaceMUSIC
Anti-Purple Alliance.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z He didn't say the "entire" west if you look at his post, he said "western super powers." And there's a distinction between the state and the people. If there was a generalization being made, it certainly wasn't in reference to the entire west, and I seriously doubt he was generalizing about the general populace, but rather the actions of the state.

Granted. He only said the super powers. But if you take that in its traditional sense (i.e. France, the US, and Britain) the post doesn't make much sense, so I assumed he meant the west in general. As regard to people and state, I think that the context (i.e. the post he replied to) leaves little doubt that the post was meant to illustrate that non-Muslims are bad too.
To be honest, it's not really a point I care much about - I just thought it was an obvious display of hipocracy, and as he has so far been posting pretty well-reasoned posts, I pointed it out. Nevertheless his reply seems to indicate that he was generalizing on purpose, although I didn't quite follow his reason for doing so.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z BTW, you seem somewhat stressed out and irritable lately. I haven't really been following the Muhammad cartoon stuff or much of anything lately (been very busy with school). Have things gotton worse or something over there?

Hmm. Definitely stressed out. But more irritable? Maybe I come across as more irritable because I only have time for one-liners and no smileys these days. Maybe it's because there's more stupid n00bs around that needs shooing. I do think that I still support my views with half-decent arguments and don't resort much to name calling, though. Don't know.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic But more irritable? Maybe I come across as more irritable because I only have time for one-liners and no smileys these days. Maybe it's because there's more stupid n00bs around that needs shooing.

It's hard to disagree with that. I have a fucking insane project due for my Architechture class. We have to find an open source communications software, and then optimize it for the Pentium M 4 architecture and chipset (i.e hardware optimizations too! That cover things like pipleling, caches, branch prediction etc.). So that requires tons of research and analysis (We had to get the ISA for the damn thing and go through it all! ). My team and I had the hardest time finding a decent application (it's an audio conference program), then it took forever to get all the info from a profiler (my brilliant team leader decided to select a windows app! ). Rightnow I'm analyzing the source code, which we're later going to have to cross compile and then analyze the assembly code. Bah, I've been up all night and I'm still not done. What the f*** is wrong with our prof !?!! We have other classes to study for too goddamit!

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z It's hard to disagree with that. I have a fucking insane project due for my Architechture class. We have to find an open source communications software, and then optimize it for the Pentium M 4 architecture and chipset (i.e hardware optimizations too! That cover things like pipleling, caches, branch prediction etc.). So that requires tons of research and analysis (We had to get the ISA for the damn thing and go through it all! ). My team and I had the hardest time finding a decent application (it's an audio conference program), then it took forever to get all the info from a profiler (my brilliant team leader decided to select a windows app! ). Rightnow I'm analyzing the source code, which we're later going to have to cross compile and then analyze the assembly code. Bah, I've been up all night and I'm still not done. What the f*** is wrong with our prof !?!! We have other classes to study for too goddamit!

Damn, that actually sounds like fun
What course are you taking?
It sounds like an electronics class (something I've done) but could be comp sci?

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Damn, that actually sounds like fun

Not fun when you've been up all night and have another CS project and 2 test and number theory homework!

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r What course are you taking? It sounds like an electronics class (something I've done) but could be comp sci?

Nopes, it's for CS. My head is going to explode . I'm stepping out for a smoke.

EDIT: As you can see, I've completely lost it.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic It might be my old age playing tricks on me here, but I seem to remember that the last two times anyone really gave a flying fuck about this the process was shot down. First by Arafat's pride. Second time by the Palestinians voting a terror organization into power. Nobody have said anything about Muslims shouldn't be angry. What places them into the B category is not really that they get excited about cartoons. It's that they take their anger out on companies, which have nothing to do with Jyllands-posten, and citizens and embassies of a country, whose only offense is that Jyllands-posten is published there. That is retarded.

I agree with you.. taking it out on companies was not the brightest of ideas. But then again they had to take it out on someone or something.

And @ Firestarter - Where'd you get that Abu Laban bit of info?

___________________
Music for your Mind