nem0nic, thanks for the advice. I'm actually not running a laptop, but I do have wireless turned on. I'll turn off all unneeded services and see if that helps. And I'll swing by Radio Shack today and pick up that grounding adapter. Will this harm the computer at all? I mean, isn't there a ground prong coming from my PSU for a reason?

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Originally posted by nem0nic DJing with Ableton alone right now is alot like getting to a gig and pressing play on a mix CD. Ableton is still not the real time DJing app it could be. That's why alot of DJs are using it in conjunction with their existing setup - but not by itself.

I don't know who you've been listening to use Ableton, but I assure you there is a LARGE community of DJ's out there doing things with Ableton that are simply not possible on real decks. Many of us just want to combine the two because we enjoy manipulating music with our hands in a more traditional sense - But make no mistake, Ableton is a powerhouse, and there are a number of individuals out there (Blake Jarrell, Ritchie Hawtin, Can Costa/Ricky Ryan, Zabiela, Jaytech, Sasha, and more) who are using it as such.

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Originally posted by RJT I don't know who you've been listening to use Ableton, but I assure you there is a LARGE community of DJ's out there doing things with Ableton that are simply not possible on real decks. Many of us just want to combine the two because we enjoy manipulating music with our hands in a more traditional sense - But make no mistake, Ableton is a powerhouse, and there are a number of individuals out there (Blake Jarrell, Ritchie Hawtin, Can Costa/Ricky Ryan, Zabiela, Jaytech, Sasha, and more) who are using it as such.

Clovsha's not too bad at it either. I really don't know where people get this idea that Ableton is akin to just pressing play on a mix cd. I would really like to know their reasoning behind those statements.

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Originally posted by Demoted Clovsha's not too bad at it either. I really don't know where people get this idea that Ableton is akin to just pressing play on a mix cd. I would really like to know their reasoning behind those statements.

Indeed - I was just trying to make sure my reference points were familiar to all

I just really, really want to find a way to use my CD decks in conjunction with Ableton, and can't seem to figure it out yet...

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Originally posted by nem0nic What you have is a ground loop, and that thing is probably either a direct box or a GLI (Ground Loop Isolator). You COULD go SUPER CHEAP and buy one of these... http://www.radioshack.com/product/i...ctId=2104010&cp It will take care of the problem as well, but I personally don't like the idea of lifting the ground. So I have one of these... http://www.ebtechaudio.com/humxdes.html Works like a charm.

yeah ground loop isolator, couldnt think of the name!

i'll try one of those grounded plugs too, thanks for the good idea!

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It's equivalent to using something like Traktor with Ableton, just an odd combination in my mind.

Actually, Traktor DJ Studio works really well with Ableton, since it can provide MIDI clock data to external apps or devices. The only caviat is that to get MIDI from Traktor to another app running on the same computer you need to use a 3rd program (like HUBI's MIDI loopback device).

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Will this harm the computer at all?

You should only lift the ground temporarily to see if a ground loop is the problem. I highly suggest a more professional solution if it is. I use the EbTech HumX (http://www.ebtechaudio.com/humxdes.html). I like this option because unlike using something like a GLI, it doesn't color the audio signal path at all.

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I don't know who you've been listening to use Ableton, but I assure you there is a LARGE community of DJ's out there doing things with Ableton that are simply not possible on real decks

And I am one of them. But unless you're doing preproduced sets, Ableton is VERY inferior to other DJing apps in terms of the kind of "on the fly" DJing most DJs do. Here are some examples...

Live's file browser sucks for DJing (it doesn't parse ID3 data, no notes, no metadata support for other file formats, no logical layout that doesn't involve renaming ALL your files, no "crate" options, weak searching options).

Live's beatmatching accuracy depends on ALOT of preproduction. Whether it's trimming off the silence from the beginning ot MP3s and re-encoding them to a wav, setting up all your warp markers in music with broken beats or anything that breaks time, or seperating out your loops, it all requires preproduction. DJing apps are much more robust, allowing you to map around broken beats (or doing it automatically for you), and have extensive looping options that can be based on cue points (and not seperate clips).

Live's external control options currently offer no ability for file manipulation in real time. There is no scratching interface for it, even though MIDI devices exist that send this kind of MIDI data (the KontrolDJ as an example).

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Ableton is a powerhouse, and there are a number of individuals out there (Blake Jarrell, Ritchie Hawtin, Can Costa/Ricky Ryan, Zabiela, Jaytech, Sasha, and more) who are using it as such.

There sure are, but not as their ONLY audio source. EVERYONE you mentioned combines traditional DJ equipment and/or other DJ software in thier performances. I find it REALLY funny that you put JZ in that list, since he is such an accomplished turntablist and it would be impossible for him to be the DJ he is if he were JUST using Ableton. Even Sasha will set up his Maven right next to a pair of tables and an A&H on most of his gigs. And Hawtin very actively uses TDJS at his gigs (but uses SSL when he does vinyl control in the last year or so).

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I really don't know where people get this idea that Ableton is akin to just pressing play on a mix cd. I would really like to know their reasoning behind those statements.

Using Ableton alone to DJ is like using ProTools or Cubase to DJ. It doesn't have the things working DJs need to be responsive to a crowd.

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I just really, really want to find a way to use my CD decks in conjunction with Ableton, and can't seem to figure it out yet...

You do it like everyone else does it. You run the two systems seperately and mind keeping sync. If you want your DJ app to generate a MIDI clock for you to sync Ableton to, invest in the FS2/TDJS combination.

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Originally posted by nem0nic And I am one of them. But unless you're doing preproduced sets, Ableton is VERY inferior to other DJing apps in terms of the kind of "on the fly" DJing most DJs do. Here are some examples...

you are totally off your fucking rocker guy. let me preface this argument with a little historical fact:

there was this little guy by the name of Bing Crosby back in the early 30's that had the revolutionary idea to use this new technology called magnetic tape to prerecord his radio shows and edit them. at the time, ALL radio was live and the thought of a radio show not being performed live was insulting to most people. over time people realized that through this new technology their listening experience was being enhanced, the shows were more fluid, entertaining, and just plain sounded better. 76 years later we could not even fathom not listening to prerecorded, formatted radio, we accept it. that little guy Bing Crosby went on to become the highest paid entertainer in world history and has sold more records than micheal jackson, madonna, and prince combined.

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Originally posted by nem0nic Live's file browser sucks for DJing (it doesn't parse ID3 data, no notes, no metadata support for other file formats, no logical layout that doesn't involve renaming ALL your files, no "crate" options, weak searching options).

are you fucking kidding me? i type in luke chable and all my luke chable tunes come up. what else do you need? as long as your file was named correctly in the first place wtf do you need to rename all of your stuff for? no crate options? how about infinite audio slots to drop stuff your planning on playing that night into. or even creating folders for such.

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Originally posted by nem0nic Live's beatmatching accuracy depends on ALOT of preproduction. Whether it's trimming off the silence from the beginning ot MP3s and re-encoding them to a wav, setting up all your warp markers in music with broken beats or anything that breaks time, or seperating out your loops, it all requires preproduction. DJing apps are much more robust, allowing you to map around broken beats (or doing it automatically for you), and have extensive looping options that can be based on cue points (and not seperate clips).

i dont even understand your argument here, are you saying that it sucks that you have to warp your own tracks in ableton, where as other djing apps will more precisely beatmatch your tracks for you?

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Originally posted by nem0nic Live's external control options currently offer no ability for file manipulation in real time. There is no scratching interface for it, even though MIDI devices exist that send this kind of MIDI data (the KontrolDJ as an example).

this will come in time, but until that comes none of us should be trying to scratch anyway, plain and simple. we arent JZ so why bother?

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Originally posted by nem0nic There sure are, but not as their ONLY audio source. EVERYONE you mentioned combines traditional DJ equipment and/or other DJ software in thier performances. I find it REALLY funny that you put JZ in that list, since he is such an accomplished turntablist and it would be impossible for him to be the DJ he is if he were JUST using Ableton. Even Sasha will set up his Maven right next to a pair of tables and an A&H on most of his gigs. And Hawtin very actively uses TDJS at his gigs (but uses SSL when he does vinyl control in the last year or so).

ableton is my only audio source when i decide to use it live. the only reason i dont use it everytime is to avoid pissing off the other people that are playing that night by setting up things and running cables. Sasha sets up next to tables because he uses a Mac, and we all know what that means.

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Originally posted by nem0nic Using Ableton alone to DJ is like using ProTools or Cubase to DJ. It doesn't have the things working DJs need to be responsive to a crowd.

this is hilarious...what more do you need to be responsive to a crowd other than playing the right track at the right time? what, in your world, is djing all about? manual beatmatching?

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nem0nic, thanks for the help so far. Unfortunately lifting the ground did not do anything. Maybe I described the sound wrong. This is the sound that I hear:

http://www.djbrettb.net/annoying.mp3

The only time that sound starts is when the actual Torq software starts. And I get the same exact sound when using my USB SB Live sound card. Any other things I can try for that?

Blake good points overall, I woudln't attack the guy as he is not ready for a swtich to use Ableton "live" just yet. I'd totally respect that if I were you, I am kind of in the same boat as him I could go on and on you still gotta respect others who prefer manual beat matching instead. I personally would like to see a DJ "do something" with a pair of CDJs rather than see someone sit behind a screen for 2 hours unles you're Sasha and you're quite busy tweaking that custom made controller of yours... )

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Originally posted by Prism Blake good points overall, I woudln't attack the guy as he is not ready for a swtich to use Ableton "live" just yet. I'd totally respect that if I were you, I am kind of in the same boat as him I could go on and on you still gotta respect others who prefer manual beat matching instead. I personally would like to see a DJ "do something" with a pair of CDJs rather than see someone sit behind a screen for 2 hours unles you're Sasha and you're quite busy tweaking that custom made controller of yours... )

how do you know the dj is really "doing" something? it really only takes me about 1-2 mins tops to beatmatch a track manually, the other 6 i just have to stand there and look important. at least with ableton i can use dope effects, re edit songs, warp other tracks, and so on to make good use of that time instead of striking a pose or lighting a cig... and lets not even get into the whole faking shit with eq knobs that manual djs do.

my main argument is, beatmatching is a math equation, its not djing. the essentials that make up the art of djing existed LONG before beatmatching, and will continue to exist long after. djing is track selection and floor/vibe building, things that take skill and experience. everything else is just bullshit.

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you are totally off your fucking rocker guy. let me preface this argument with a completely useless and totally unrelated fact:

Fixed that for you.

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...what else do you need?

Oh, I don't know. Sorting by genre, or BPM, or by notes I've put into the ID3 tags of the music. You know... stuff EVERY OTHER FUCKING DJ APPLICATION MADE SINCE 2000 HAS. What if I don't know what specific song I want to play next, but would like to search by BPM or key instead? Again, it's fine if you've preproduced your set and KNOW that luke chable is next, but I prefer to NOT sound like a fucking robot when I spin.

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i dont even understand your argument here, are you saying that it sucks that you have to warp your own tracks in ableton, where as other djing apps will more precisely beatmatch your tracks for you?

I thought I put it pretty plainly, but obviously you don't get it. Ableton Live requires some fairly extensive preproduction before tracks are ready for any kind of on the fly performance - ESPECIALLY if you play genres that break time. Conversely, DJ apps like TDJS and Torq put beat markers in as part of the song analysis. In TDJS the beat markers do a very good job of warping around broken beats on thier own (of course you also have the option of making a beat grid on the fly, and adjusting the beat phase that is used in conjunction with the beat markers to match time).

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this will come in time, but until that comes none of us should be trying to scratch anyway, plain and simple. we arent JZ so why bother?

Speak for yourself. Some of us actually like to DJ, and there are even (hold on to yourself) TURNTABLISTS that are interested in new technology.

Blakey, you'll no doubt take offense to this. But I could give a shit, and will say it anyway.

YOU ARE NOT AN ACCURATE REPRESENTATION OF DJ'S AS A WHOLE.

For every one of you, there are literally thousands of others that aren't "destination DJs". Someone like you CAN walk into a gig and press play. That's great. But there are also OTHER KINDS OF DJs out there who have to (or want to) work a crowd in a different way. So for every one of you, for whom DJing solely with Ableton Live is an option, there are THOUSANDS of others that wouldn't dream of it. And amazingly, some of these guys aren't confined to their bedrooms, either. Think about this the next time you break out your Ableton friendly track seperated remix of Okoboji.

The general gyst of my post was that in it's current form, Ableton Live doesn't offer the tools a majority of digital DJs want. No one's chiming in and saying that you "gotta keep it old school" and do all manual anything. I've been a proponent for digital DJing for a long time, and have been active in the development of some of the more groundbreaking products released in the last couple years. But I don't have my head so far up my own ass that I think what works for me works for everyone.

I've been DJing since 1987, and was rocking the 504 for Moon Patrol and the Freebase Society when you were singing nursery rhymes. I currently have the pleasure of working as an audio engineer for a large production house, and get to sit in front of things like an SSL 4056G and a full blown PT|HD system with a 5 bucket ProControl surface 4 days a week. But I also understand that not too many people have these tools. And as of right now, only a couple retailers I know of are offering anything approaching Ableton friendly downloads for DJs. So until it's accessable for everyone (or until Ableton releases a DJ product that addresses the current lack of functionality), I'll keep my opinion about Live.

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