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Originally posted by English Rachel THEY ARE LIVING FUCKING CREATURES THAT DESERVE MORE OF A LIFE THAN LIVING IN A CAGE/PEN WHERE THEY CAN'T EVEN MAKE A 180 DEGREE TURN, HAVE TO EAT THE BY-PRODUCTS OF THEIR COUSINS WHEN THEY, THEMSELVES ARE COMPLETELY VEGETARIAN AND THEN ARE SLAUGHTERED WHERE THEY CAN SMELL THE FEAR OF THOSE BEFORE THEM. IF YOU LIVE NEAR KING WEST, YOU CAN HEAR THE SCREAMS FROM THE ABBATOIR.

If this is your issue with meat then I would suppose you have no objections to game animals. Deer for example; they don't live in cages, aren't fed animal by-products and they are normally completely unsuspecting of the single bullet that will cause their demise (which is normally immediate thus there is minimal pain or suffering) and therefore feel no fear prior to death. So, given your reasons for not eating meat do not apply to game animals... can I interest you in some venison?

BTW, it is possible to purchase free range meat that has been fed non-animal by-product food. It is also possible to purchase meat as described above that has not been commercially slaughtered.... it just costs a little more.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard If this is your issue with meat then I would suppose you have no objections to game animals. Deer for example; they don't live in cages, aren't fed animal by-products and they are normally completely unsuspecting of the single bullet that will cause their demise (which is normally immediate thus there is minimal pain or suffering) and therefore feel no fear prior to death. So, given your reasons for not eating meat do not apply to game animals... can I interest you in some venison? BTW, it is possible to purchase free range meat that has been fed non-animal by-product food. It is also possible to purchase meat as described above that has not been commercially slaughtered.... it just costs a little more.

Game animals... hmmm... I was posed this question when I first got here (we think of hunting as archaic in England for the most part) and in principle, I don't have a problem with it from a meat-eating standpoint (likw I said, I still wouldn't though). It would, however, have to be a 'one or the other' situation. You can't farm animals AND hunt them, that is ridiculous.... I have always thought of hunting as a power trip or penis extension. If animals were allowed to roam free and were hunted for their meat, that would be more ideal for me and my belief system. It appears as though we would have to go back a few thousand years though and I, for one, love my iPod too much.

As for free-range meat, I am fully aware of its existence, my poor parents have had to buy it for 20 odd years because of my nagging!

My one crusade is for life to be life and death to be dignified. I am sure, posed with the question, 90% of meat eaters would agree with me too

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Be the best person you can be. Always.

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Originally posted by English Rachel Game animals... hmmm... I was posed this question when I first got here (we think of hunting as archaic in England for the most part) and in principle, I don't have a problem with it from a meat-eating standpoint (likw I said, I still wouldn't though). It would, however, have to be a 'one or the other' situation. You can't farm animals AND hunt them, that is ridiculous

Interesting answer. I'm not sure it has to be one or the other as it is, in fact, both at present. Wait, do you mean farm and hunt as in hunt the animals we keep as domestic live stock?... like farm deer and then hunt them? If so, sadly we do that already, there are many such farms in the US and one that I know of near Coldwater ON.

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If animals were allowed to roam free and were hunted for their meat, that would be more ideal for me and my belief system. It appears as though we would have to go back a few thousand years though and I, for one, love my iPod too much.

I think that if we were to immediately free all domesticated animals and end commercial meat production in favour of hunting our own cows and chickens we would have a major ecological disaster as no natural environment could sustain that burden. I'm sorry if I mistook your meaning though as I suspect I may have.

I would imagine that if not for commercial farms we would see commercial hunting instead. Without question meat would be a lot more expensive and the economy would slow down tremendously but I doubt we'd really have to sacrafice progress.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Interesting answer. I'm not sure it has to be one or the other as it is, in fact, both at present. Wait, do you mean farm and hunt as in hunt the animals we keep as domestic live stock?... like farm deer and then hunt them? If so, sadly we do that already, there are many such farms in the US and one that I know of near Coldwater ON. I think that if we were to immediately free all domesticated animals and end commercial meat production in favour of hunting our own cows and chickens we would have a major ecological disaster as no natural environment could sustain that burden. I'm sorry if I mistook your meaning though as I suspect I may have. I would imagine that if not for commercial farms we would see commercial hunting instead. Without question meat would be a lot more expensive and the economy would slow down tremendously but I doubt we'd really have to sacrafice progress.

No, I didn't mean farm them to hunt them, I meant, EITHER farm for meat OR hunt for meat, both is nothing more than an excuse for 'sport'.

I also wouldn't want to free all animals, I was simply trying to say that as we can NEVER get back to the days where we hunted for our meat, we really need to look at the practices we undertake and that your hunting example was futile as a result of the fact that we can't turn back time.

Your last point, I totally agree with and is almost my crusade... not commercial hunting per se but humane farming practices at least. Meat SHOULD be expensive and only eaten a few times a week... it is demand from the masses that has brought us to where we are today.

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Be the best person you can be. Always.

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Originally posted by English Rachel No, I didn't mean farm them to hunt them, I meant, EITHER farm for meat OR hunt for meat, both is nothing more than an excuse for 'sport'.

I wouldn't say it is mearly an excuse for sport. Granted, many hunt for sport, however, there are some who prefer to hunt for food. Additionally, it should be noted that without hunting there would develop an over-population of certain animals (deer most noteably) which would result in disease and ecological problems.

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I also wouldn't want to free all animals, I was simply trying to say that as we can NEVER get back to the days where we hunted for our meat, we really need to look at the practices we undertake and that your hunting example was futile as a result of the fact that we can't turn back time.

Indeed, we cannot turn back time, however, my argument was not that we should. I was mearly trying to see if you objection was to the killing of animals et al or commercial farming specifically. You answered that, and I thank you for it, but I thought you were widening the discussion.

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Your last point, I totally agree with and is almost my crusade... not commercial hunting per se but humane farming practices at least. Meat SHOULD be expensive and only eaten a few times a week... it is demand from the masses that has brought us to where we are today.

You should be pleased to know that more and more farmers (especially in Canada) are adopting free-range and otherwise humane farming practices. This is generally being done because farmers have accepted that happy and active animals produce better meat and dairy products. The days of animals being caged as you described earlier are ending and fast (except for chickens.... they seem to not care... the farmers that is, not the chickens). I would recommend you pay a visit to any Ontario beef farm if you doubt me on this. Unfortunately, slaughter practices remain unchanged with the exception that it is generally done faster and more efficiently then ever before. This is a slight improvement as the animals spend less time in holding prior to slaughter but it is by no means humane.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

[/QUOTE]
You should be pleased to know that more and more farmers (especially in Canada) are adopting free-range and otherwise humane farming practices. This is generally being done because farmers have accepted that happy and active animals produce better meat and dairy products. The days of animals being caged as you described earlier are ending and fast (except for chickens.... they seem to not care... the farmers that is, not the chickens). I would recommend you pay a visit to any Ontario beef farm if you doubt me on this. Unfortunately, slaughter practices remain unchanged with the exception that it is generally done faster and more efficiently then ever before. This is a slight improvement as the animals spend less time in holding prior to slaughter but it is by no means humane. [/QUOTE]
totally agree with you there, farmers are people too and care about their animals as well. I think as long as people know where their food is coming from that they can choose whether or not to eat meat.

I have chosen meat mmmmmm

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Originally posted by exstasie It's true though... I don't know any guy who 'decided' on their own they wanted to be become a vegetarian...there has always been a female influence..

Well ... I'm Hindu ... Its kinda my religion

I don't know about being a hazard to morals but you are a hazard to my productivity today... I have done the square root of fuck all...

Good discussion, even if we didn't understand each other all the time

One parting shot from me though, just because I can't help myself... Without our interference, the eco system sorted itself out - there weren't over populations of any given animal as the food chain sorted that out - the problems of the world are all human and we have to live with the guilt and the consequences.

Cruelty is unneccessary whether it is to your fellow man or other living creature. Period.

Now follow me and hug a tree, the world will be a better place for it

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Be the best person you can be. Always.

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Originally posted by English Rachel One parting shot from me though, just because I can't help myself... Without our interference, the eco system sorted itself out - there weren't over populations of any given animal as the food chain sorted that out - the problems of the world are all human and we have to live with the guilt and the consequences. Cruelty is unneccessary whether it is to your fellow man or other living creature. Period.

Alright, one final retort then.... Indeed, humans have caused a shift in the equalibrium of the world's ecosystems. In the case of game animals the problem we have is that we have removed the natural preditors for most of these animals. We've done this either for our security or simply by establishing ourselves as the dominant preditor thus making the other preditors move on to better hunting grounds. If we were to remove ourselves as a preditor now we would exacerbate the balance problems we've created. It is possible other preditors would fill the void but that would take time and as we've seen when hunting restrictions have been brought in disease and lack of food spreads faster then the preditors return. It is likely that an immediate cesation of hunting would result in near total elimination of many game animals, the same ones you seek to save from the ravages of hunting.... allowing most to all of a population to die of disease or starvation to alieviate our guilt over killing wild animals would also be cruel, agree?

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Alright, one final retort then.... Indeed, humans have caused a shift in the equalibrium of the world's ecosystems. In the case of game animals the problem we have is that we have removed the natural preditors for most of these animals. We've done this either for our security or simply by establishing ourselves as the dominant preditor thus making the other preditors move on to better hunting grounds. If we were to remove ourselves as a preditor now we would exacerbate the balance problems we've created. It is possible other preditors would fill the void but that would take time and as we've seen when hunting restrictions have been brought in disease and lack of food spreads faster then the preditors return. It is likely that an immediate cesation of hunting would result in near total elimination of many game animals, the same ones you seek to save from the ravages of hunting.... allowing most to all of a population to die of disease or starvation to alieviate our guilt over killing wild animals would also be cruel, agree?

Agree!

And like I said 20 posts ago, we can't turn back time so we have to make the most of the situation we have created.

Now do NOT get me started on fur.

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Be the best person you can be. Always.

I answered non-vegetarian, though after new years last year, I went vegetarian for about three months as an experiment.

I generally found I had more energy and didn't have that really "full" feeling after eating. I discovered a whole bunch of foods/grains/protein sources that I had never tried before.

The only thing I missed about eating meat was the convenience of it. Of 10 items on the menu, 8 or 9 were always meat dishes. Vegetarians are often an after thought at restaurants - people assume they can just be fed a salad or pasta and they'll be satisfied. there are so many more creative meals to be had though.

Did you know that the resources needed to raise animals for human consumption could solve world hunger if they were used differently?

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I love rev... Rev-y, Rev, Rev