quote:

Originally posted by Jem_hadar I commend you Jay for arguing this point of view and statement (which I agree with you on, btw). It is a very time consuming (and frustrating) task I can tell, since most dont see the points you are trying to make here. ^5 Jem

the only way we can end the double standards and foster a better understanding of each other is to have the guts to talk about it in an open, respectful and frank way as we have been doing here in this thread.

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quote:

Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 aaaah to YOU! But you aren't white. The slur isn't directed toward you. What about the people he does offend? I personally think that the N bomb shouldnt be used at all. But if its socially acceptable for a black man to say it, then my arguement is that its now socially acceptable for anyone to say it. Any other variation is in fact racism.

I'm not white, but I'm not black either. Neither slurs really mean much to me personally, but I have heard them being used in many contexts. I'm not saying white shouldn't be allowed to say nigga...hell, I bet half of you say it in private regardless of what the social taboo is. I also know that black people are just as racist as everybody else.

I also don't agree that the N bomb should be eradicated from our vocabulary because I believe that's a pipe dream. Black people are going to stay black, and as long as people know that word, they will use it (both in private and public). I don't have a problem with other people using it either...hell, I've used it - more then a few times, I'll probably use it again. But I've never said it with an aim to deamen a black man, and i've never used it in a context to remind someone of how black people were treated in the past. Which is what Richards did.

Most black people use the word as a term of endearment. They can do this because they are black...You and I can not. If you're going to use it, then I suggest you do so carefully. I have black friends who call me nigga and I know it's not because of my skin color. More importantly, they realize when I use it - that I'm comming from the same place they are.

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"Hell is full of musical amateurs; music is the brandy of the damned."
~ George Bernard Shaw

as i said, basing one's ability to say a word on their skin colour is the very definition of racism itself. And that kind of hypocrisy is what i cant stand about today's society

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quote:

Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 if the way in which he used the word "n8gger" is so bad... then why isnt the reaction "cracker ass" just as offensive? They worth both said (apprently to some) with the same intent of malice.

If a woman called me a jerk, with malice, does that justify me calling her a c*nt? No. It does not. They might both be said in hate, but one is much, much worse than the other.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. DAS If a woman called me a jerk, with malice, does that justify me calling her a c*nt? No. It does not. They might both be said in hate, but one is much, much worse than the other.

why? because one is a swear word and one is not? What if she called the guy an asshole?

Dont even get me started on the "bitch" double standard....

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quote:

Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

quote:

Originally posted by Jem_hadar I commend you Jay for arguing this point of view and statement (which I agree with you on, btw). It is a very time consuming (and frustrating) task I can tell, since most dont see the points you are trying to make here. ^5 Jem

we see the point...it's just not a valid one.

he's trying to equate the terms "ni*ger" and "cracker" while not lending any weight whatsoever to historical uses of the words and to the historical relationship between whites and blacks in the U.S.

while I agree with Jay's underlying point (if I can be presumptuous) that the 'crutch' of slavery and racism can't be used forever (no black dude sitting in a comedy club audience has endured slavery or lynching), it's idealistic (at best) to presume an equal playing field with respect to these racial slurs.

I think we're getting hung up on the words and not the underlying motives and intentions for using them. If I get mad and use a slur with you, it could be that I'm simply trying to strike at a sensitive point (knowing that some people still place power in that slur) rather than *actually* intending to convey the feelings that using such a slur historically would convey.

That's why I'm suggesting that this may not be a "racist tirade" and simply a case of using very poor judgement...no?

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT we see the point...it's just not a valid one. he's trying to equate the terms "ni*ger" and "cracker" while not lending any weight whatsoever to historical uses of the words and to the historical relationship between whites and blacks in the U.S. [b]I think we're getting hung up on the words and not the underlying motives and intentions for using them.

+1

quote:

That's why I'm suggesting that this may not be a "racist tirade" and simply a case of using very poor judgement...no?

I think it was an 8-ball and an underlying race issue. Bottom line is he fucked up. Hard.

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT we see the point...it's just not a valid one. he's trying to equate the terms "ni*ger" and "cracker" while not lending any weight whatsoever to historical uses of the words and to the historical relationship between whites and blacks in the U.S.

He's trying to make a point that equality is far from being reached in todays society with these double standards.

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-.mK. - DONE UNIVERSITY weeeeeeeeee! says:
RITA MCNEIL CHRISTMAS SPECIAL MON @8, CTV

cracker is not equal to N*GGER.

this is coming from a cracker.

quote:

Originally posted by KaiLee He's trying to make a point that equality is far from being reached in todays society with these double standards.

exactly...

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quote:

Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

Seems to me there are three different thigns going on here.

1) The incident involving Michael Richards

2) Double Standards

3) The weight carried by certain derogatory words

My opinion...

Michael Richards was out of line, not for using the N word, because as has been discussed it would be a double standard to allow it to be used by some and not others.

It is a mistake however to blindly look over the intent which was loaded behind the usage of the word. It is clear to me that he was reacting out of anger, and an inner hatred of african americans was coming out.

In this circumstance it is irrelevant what the people in the audience called him, he is a professional and should know how to handle himself.
Being a celebrity, on stage, in a position of power with a microphone places him in a different place, than if he were in an argument between two people on a street. In that circumstance the argument that "he called me this so I called him that" may hold some water, but here it does not.

I for one am dissapointed in Michael Richards, he was a person I looked up to and no amount of my previous liking oh his work will make me stand up for him in this circumstance in particular.

2)Double Standards

I agree 100% with Jayx1 that double standards are areas of trouble and should be avoided at all costs. I also agree that there is a double standard when it comes to racial commedy. By its nature, racial humour is a touchy subject, it can be done well, but always carries the risk that it will be interpretted in a different way by different people.
It does not appear to me that this episode fits into the double standard argument though, because as many have stated, these comments are not part of his humour routine. I don't think you would find too many people defending chris rock if he were to start calling out two white men in his audience angrily saying that they were crackers.

3) Weight of words

Racial insults are bad, all of them. That being said, certain ones are far worse. It is naive of anyone to think that cracker carries the same weight of the n word. Give me a break, racism may not be as large of a problem as it once was, since at least to the best of my knowledge there aren't people hanging with forks in there asses anymore, but it is still a problem, and certain terms are essentially tied up in the power struggle between the races and because of it carry more weight than others. I will not listen to the "oh poor me they're making fun of me for being a dominant white male" argument, claiming that that is as bad as what Richards was doing to those guys in his audience.

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Check out more of my ramblings at:
http://thedailyuniverse.blogspot.com/

Where Are The Tunes?
Good things happen to good people

good post except for

quote:

Originally posted by shanny I will not listen to the "oh poor me they're making fun of me for being a dominant white male" argument, claiming that that is as bad as what Richards was doing to those guys in his audience.

Why not? that guy was just as wrong or right as richards was. His racial insults were the result of being angry just as richards supposedly were.

Whats the difference?

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quote:

Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill