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Originally posted by nefardec @skip - You're right, they aren't the same. I am a bit imaginative is all, and I like to imagine that music could behave like an organism. I don't believe that it is an organism, however. Ouch, so I don't even qualify for the stupid ideas category? What does that make your ideas then for responding to them? The list was called "important technologies for the future". I don't see how nanotech wouldn't be used in the future for sound synthesis or sound reproduction.

even if you're "a bit imaginative", it still doesn't make any of this music to have any relation to bioinformatics.

you got the stupid ideas thing wrong here. i don't mean it as a negative thing. IMO it's perfectly fine to have stupid ideas, it's how you act on them what makes you stupid or not. so because i don't think your ideas belong to "the stupid ideas category". well that doesn't make my ideas any more or less anything. you've clearly misunderstood me here.

sure nanotech could be used to music production in the future, it could be used for almost anything. that's not the point though. the point is that what does it have to do with the kind of music you're talking about here. would nanotech be used exclusively to make such music only? if not, what point does mentioning nanotech here serve?

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Originally posted by Allied Nations Does that matter?

Well it seems to me the philosophers are so keen to make any sound that is intended to provoke a response "music" that any sound or collection of sound composed in any way to any set of rules or mathematics will technically constitute music. Therefore, what the hell is the point of implementing complex algorithms or bionics when you can reverse bird-song, overlay it on itself randomly and have "music" that is entirely cutting-edge, different, shiny and completely fucking hideous to listen to, all for a fraction of the price or effort?

I need to see a logical reason why doing things a certain way is worth the effort as opposed to any other way. Why should we follow any of the technological trends he's mentioned as opposed to implementing anything else? And really, what would the point be? Randomly implementing shit until you stumble across something that can be concieved as having a point beyond existing for its own sake is not scientific.

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Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

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Originally posted by nefardec Here's another definition: "of a discarded or outmoded type; out of date"

I don't see how something that still is enjoyed, demanded and supplied at the same time is discarded or out of date.

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and another: "imperfectly developed or rudimentary in comparison with the corresponding character in others"

There are no others to compare it to.

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Could you give me any names? I would like to hear them.

Recent examples are Steve Roach's Immersion series: "Immersion: One", "Immersion: Two" and the upcoming "Immersion: Three". Also "Possible Planet", "Terraform" and "The Dream Circle", all by Steve Roach. Actually there are examples spread all across his discography, but these i mentioned are some his more droning steady-state long-form works. Other examples could be Pete Namlook's "Music For Urban Meditation" and Robert Rich's "Trances / Drones".

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It really doesn't matter. For one, this is irrelevant to the technology. to use the example I started, i think it's more productive to push technology to its limits rather than recreate things which came about from pushing older technology to its limits.

One can have opinions about that, but we're not discussing what's productive or not and whether that is of any relevance.

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Originally posted by nefardec However, I know if I play drum and bass for my little sicilian grandmother i think she might have the same reaction you described regading Ligeti's piece, which makes me think it is a condition of culture.

Of course, this could very well just be her conscious reaction. Subconsciously, she would probably be able to recognize the melodic elements, the rhythmic pulse, the timbrel noodling. It would register in her as music. She'd probably think of it as angry music, even bad music, but consciously, it's possible for her to reject it outright.

otherwise I agree with you.

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This movement argues that 'modernism' in the classical sense

Firstly, the idea of modernism being referred to in a 'classical sense' doesn't make any sense as Modernism was a reaction to Classicism. It would often turn classical art against itself.

For example, the era of modernist novel writers at the turn of the 20th century would often write in a way which was 'against the grain' compared to the classical form of the novel before it. Whereas before we would have omniscient narration, with the narrative in chronological order, Modernist writers would often deliberatly write with scattershot chronology. They would write from the perspective of individuals, so you never got an overall sense of what was happening. Think Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness and his fictional narrator - Marlow, or William Faulkner in The Sound and the Fury and his narrators, Quentin Compson and Benjamin Compson.

As you may well know, Modernism began as a reaction against an established 'form' of the art. It questioned why these were starting points of novel writing or painting or whatever. At some point however, this 'writing against the grain' became in and of itself a kind of rule, a kind of structure for Modernism and it had to die.

And so we arrive at Post Modernism. Which is the rejection of everything Modern and a continuation of it. Post Modernism is a really tricky area to describe because it cannot really be described without contradicting itself. Its a curious paradox that is worth reading about in Peter Barry's Beginning Theory.

In musical terms this has already happened - you just missed it. Around the late 70s you may have heard of a label called Industrial Records. The manifesto of this label was to create music which did not rely on musical structure - which anyone, regardless of their race, class or knowledge could make and enjoy. It was essentially music for 'the working class' - hence the name. You can see this in visual terms with the Video Art movement. See 'Vito Acconci' or some other proponant of this genre.

Industrial music is very abstract, largely based on incidental noise. It doesn't have any sort of musical structure and in terms of its arrangement is quite random. In that sense you could think of it as closer to the incidental sounds you hear all around you.

However, Industrial Records died in 1983 and the big reason it did is because it became something of a cliche. It became the kind of form and rule that it was trying to get away from in its strict avoidance of form and rule in music.

Now everything in that vein or taking ideas and inspiration from it, in part or in whole could be regarded as Post Industrial. That is, music that came about in the aftermath of Industrial Records.

In the same way that Post Modernism just refers to art that came about in the aftermath of Modernism, what you are left with is a mish mash and a hybridisation of many of the ideas that came before it. But now theres no stated aim. No point of reference. No reaction to anything.

But in musical terms that event has already happened. About 30 years ago. Alot of people didn't know or cared that it happened though. You might be interested however.

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Originally posted by Derivative Firstly, the idea of modernism being referred to in a 'classical sense' doesn't make any sense as Modernism was a reaction to Classicism. It would often turn classical art against itself. For example, the era of modernist novel writers at the turn of the 20th century would often write in a way which was 'against the grain' compared to the classical form of the novel before it. Whereas before we would have omniscient narration, with the narrative in chronological order, Modernist writers would often deliberatly write with scattershot chronology. They would write from the perspective of individuals, so you never got an overall sense of what was happening. Think Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness and his fictional narrator - Marlow, or William Faulkner in The Sound and the Fury and his narrators, Quentin Compson and Benjamin Compson.

Modernism was a reaction against the Victorian arrogance that had preceded it, motivated by social concerns. After a century or more of colonial European hubris, the changing political climate and the onset of the World Wars reflected on society. It was termed something to the effect of "the ache of the century". I don't think you can define modernism or post-modernism (especially the latter, which is so varied and ambiguous it is only really connected by the social conditions that induced it, "post-modernity") without noting the social stimuli that brought them about.

This reaction against the Victorian mindset did reflect in modernist literature. The modernists were greatly interested in advances in psychology that suggested mankind was not as high, mighty or self-controlled as they liked to admit (something that obviously reflects in novels like Heart of Darkness) and especially in human perception. Stream-of-consciousness was the most obvious example of this, as it was a rejection of the omnisicent narrative realist style favoured by the Victorians in favour of a highly subjective form of narration that mimicked how people's minds really worked.

..All of which is irrelevant really. I'm not sure modernism was a reaction to classicism as a whole (at least not in literature, which is the only area I have any claim to expertise in), but when he said "classical sense" I think he meant the commonly agreed definition of modernism (basically that it was a movement determined to be different to what came before), as opposed to referring to classicism.

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Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

Thank you i found this very interesting, both parts sinse i seriously think of becoming an architec when i grow up if music doesn't work out for me. ok so..

yes this my be true,idk if i am old school in that....topic lets say, but if this, one day, really becomes true, to me at least, it would be a sad truth. I view art as something creative, soulful and human, music and architecture, to me, are art fields, especially modern architecture which i am most interested in. The ideas of having machines creating our music, which is very intimate to me, and our homes just simply scares me, do you know how many people would lose their jobs and how it would affect the world? Idk if i could ever accept such things, even though music created by machines may sound awesome, but the soul, the hard work , the effort you think someone went through to create that song for you and thousands of other people, it simpley isn't there. That just saddens and worries me.

music is absolute?













i agree.

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..All of which is irrelevant really. I'm not sure modernism was a reaction to classicism as a whole (at least not in literature, which is the only area I have any claim to expertise in), but when he said "classical sense" I think he meant the commonly agreed definition of modernism (basically that it was a movement determined to be different to what came before), as opposed to referring to classicism

Thanks, yeah I meant like "textbook modernism". Also my specialization is architecture, so when I say modernism it mgith be a little different. Actually I sort of was being cynical about it because although modernists at least in architecture had these idealistic thoughts which drove their designs a lot of people ended up merely copying them stylistically and relying on archaic structural systems and programmatic organizations, etc

Derivative - thanks for that. I am aware that as an idea this has been done before. I wasn't aware of industrial records particularly. Like I posted earlier - the Muzak corporation essentially has done things like this since the 30s, and SMC pointed out some works from Reich.

What I am interested in though is a more statistics-based algorithmic method using today's technology and computer methods.
It wouldn't be exactly revolutionary as you have pointed out, but it might be revolutionary in the sense that it is generated much more quickly, possibly real-time, could be mass produced much much more easily, and I envision some sort of way too connect this to environmental controls/automation as I said in an earlier post. Maybe it's an experimental membership-only lounge which gathers data like occupant #, volume of alcohol sold, temperature, weather, day of the week, age of inhabitants, sex of inhabitants, relationship status, crowd noise, movement patterns on the floor, and all associated rates of change, means, minumums, and maximums etc etc and then using a variety of complex parametric algorithms generates some sort of music out of this. Possibly different algorithms would correspond to different categories of musical outcomes. So maybe artists are mathematicians: what if James Zabiela has an a set of his own algorithms and Tiesto has Waakop Reijers or Benno De Goeij make his own algorithms, and what if a group of internet users collaborate on a wiki and generate their own algorithms. Maybe some nameless disgruntled muzak employee makes a ton and then licenses them. then different nights at this lounge, different algorithms would interpret the same data set in either different ways or generating different sounds or both... maybe this method would be used by companies to sonically brand their business, stores, offices, etc. maybe cities use it to deter crime, brothels use it to enhance sex

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Originally posted by nefardec and SMC pointed out some works from Reich.

Roach, Steve Roach.

I will add this, these days the songwriter is mostly obsolete.

The edm scene needs more original productions than remixers and djs. The tracks largely sound the same, with only a handlful of producers putting out musically interesting tracks.

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Roach, Steve Roach.

Oops, thanks for the correction!




Re: clothes
yeah seriously when are we going to have abstract clothing like THIS again?

clothing like that is a direct result of not having to dress yourself nor feed yourself! it is truly the result of enormous wealth. nowadays i guess it's the image/name that matters

on a side note of a side note - i have a friend who wears every pair of jeans inside out