quote:

Originally posted by MrSquirrel That is one of the stupidest ideas ever. MrS

even though my initial reaction was one of agreement, I have to wonder what the effect would be on, say, smoking and drug use. It's not going to have any effect on college kids, but it would on high school. I wouldn't put it out of the question to say that lowering the drinking age to 18 would reduce smoking and drug use, oddly enough.

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Originally posted by inconspicuous even though my initial reaction was one of agreement, I have to wonder what the effect would be on, say, smoking and drug use. It's not going to have any effect on college kids, but it would on high school. I wouldn't put it out of the question to say that lowering the drinking age to 18 would reduce smoking and drug use, oddly enough.

There are a lot more cultural reasons for 'underage' smoking, alcohol, and drug use than the "legal" age at which people can do them.

I was in high school when they began the carding/enforcement of the 18 to buy cigarette laws and I can tell you that more people smoked when it was easier to get them than after. The reasons for any decline in smoking in this country will have a lot more to do with better education as to the health effects than anything else. I remember when it was hard to find a Non-smoking section in a restaurant, nowdays it is hard to find the opposite (regardless of laws).

Too many of the proponents of this or that lowering of age restrictions use data from other countries (i.e. Germany with the lowering the drinking age thing) out of context to help prove their position. You cannot compare places with a different cultural outlook on both driving and drinking and take part of the comparison out that fits their argument.

When I got my license well over a decade ago, there were still states that had a .12 legal limit for DUI conviction, now the limit is 33% lower in almost every state, including those that had the .12 levels then. I would also be willing to bet that the years that these "professors" took their alcohol related crash data from was from a time when the dangers of driving while intoxicated were less understood and breathalizers were not even common in all police stations. I went to a police station in the early 80s on a school trip that was showing us their new breathlizer, which was the first one this station had ever had.

MrS

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quote:

Originally posted by MrSquirrel

I'm not saying that lowering all the ages would drop the other rates. Rather, I'm curious as to whether having them all legalized at the same age would have a separate effect. In other words, if kids got the right to buy alcohol and cigarettes at the same age, would as many of them start smoking? Is part of the cause for teenage smoking that it's simply filling a void for substance use until others are available, or is it actually attractive in and of itself?

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> S u s h i p u n k . P h o t o g r a p h y <

quote:

Originally posted by MrSquirrel There are a lot more cultural reasons for 'underage' smoking, alcohol, and drug use than the "legal" age at which people can do them. I was in high school when they began the carding/enforcement of the 18 to buy cigarette laws and I can tell you that more people smoked when it was easier to get them than after. The reasons for any decline in smoking in this country will have a lot more to do with better education as to the health effects than anything else. I remember when it was hard to find a Non-smoking section in a restaurant, nowdays it is hard to find the opposite (regardless of laws). Too many of the proponents of this or that lowering of age restrictions use data from other countries (i.e. Germany with the lowering the drinking age thing) out of context to help prove their position. You cannot compare places with a different cultural outlook on both driving and drinking and take part of the comparison out that fits their argument. When I got my license well over a decade ago, there were still states that had a .12 legal limit for DUI conviction, now the limit is 33% lower in almost every state, including those that had the .12 levels then. I would also be willing to bet that the years that these "professors" took their alcohol related crash data from was from a time when the dangers of driving while intoxicated were less understood and breathalizers were not even common in all police stations. I went to a police station in the early 80s on a school trip that was showing us their new breathlizer, which was the first one this station had ever had. MrS

while i dont disagree with the cultural difference there are also HUGE differences in just the way drivers licenses are dealt with in europe. in france specifically it cost from what i was told by a friend approx 1200 USD! thats a lot for a drivers license. also the punishments are MUCH MUCH harsher.

one thing i do disagree with though is that your saying that theres no data really with regards to breathalyzer tests. ok fine. but think about how many of us that have NEVER experienced the lower age limit, or the higher BAC which constitutes a DUI. i have lived in california my whole life and the limit has been .08 in my whole 24yrs of existence, yet alcohol related deaths have steadily gone down in that 24yrs. so how does the age limit have any effect? this is along the same lines as the "eliminate guns" thing. its a stupid thing that APPEARS to do more good than it really does. the higher the drinking age the more underage drinking will happen. make it harder to get a license. make it more costly. make the punishments more severe. make it more not worth it. right now its an average of 15kUSD here in cali if you get a DUI (thats including insurance and other crap that comes with the dui. not just the state mandated fines). while that is a lot for 1 thing its a drop in the bucket compared to what people will make in their lifetime.

Let me say that New Jersey once lowered the Drinking age to 18. It was a disaster because 18 year olds are stupid.

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"You won a new refrigerator, great! Where you gonna put it?" - Tony Danza

oh and this thread title made me think of that sublime song about the rodney king beatings.

April 26th, 1992,
there was a riot on the streets,
tell me where were you?
You were sittin' home watchin' your TV,
while I was paticipatin' in some anarchy.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc Summers Let me say that New Jersey once lowered the Drinking age to 18. It was a disaster because 18 year olds are stupid.

lol i dont disagree that there will be those problems at first. mostly because its a new found freedom that is all of a sudden bestowed upon idiots. you also need to consider though that this frenzy will die out. all the kids between 18 and 21 will bet stupid for a short period of time and then it will generally end (relative to the immediate response to the lower of the drinking age). although along with the lower drinking age they need to make it harder to get a license. also make people pay more money to get it. i know in germany if you are caught drinking and driving the first time you lose your license for something like a year. get caught again and your banned from driving. unless thats changed last i knew.

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Originally posted by tubularbills i feel like that w/ my job sometimes. i mean, shiftowrk has totally killed my weekends....and really, all of my other lt friends are on different shifts too. so it's nearly impossible to plan something w/out us all taking days of leave (which we only get 2.5 a month). so i often feel like i'm just at work, and then at home. granted, i don't have little kids running around (which, atm , is kinda nice). but then too, i see some people's kids, and i think, "damn, i almost kinda wish i had one". having a dog helps, tho.

welcome to the miltary... i think you are realizing that it takes away your social life...

its a tough job,.. not in what your actual work is, but in everything that comes with being military... I'm sure you've noticed that its harder if you are single in the military than if you had a family

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Originally posted by Zewad welcome to google... i think you are realizing that it takes away your social life... its a tough job,.. not in what your actual work is, but in everything that comes with being military... I'm sure you've noticed that its harder if you are single in the military than if you had a family

fixed! lol but yes i do agree with you. i have some friends in the military and they have it hard cause they are single. the ones with family get all kinds of extra leave.

quote:

Originally posted by Zewad welcome to the miltary... i think you are realizing that it takes away your social life... its a tough job,.. not in what your actual work is, but in everything that comes with being military... I'm sure you've noticed that its harder if you are single in the military than if you had a family

correction, it's harder being an officer and being single.

i can't go downtown and see a fine lady w/out asking her, "are you enlisted?"



oh, ps Fort Sill, and the entire state of Oklahoma (and Kansas, for that matter) can suck my balls.

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Originally posted by tubularbills correction, it's harder being an officer and being single. i can't go downtown and see a fine lady w/out asking her, "are you enlisted?" oh, ps Fort Sill, and the entire state of Oklahoma (and Kansas, for that matter) can suck my balls.

some new found hatered for my dwelling?? (yeah rough weather day, and tomorrow for that matter... making your job hard lately??)

but on that asking girls if they are enlilsted comment...

This applies to all military so it goes for you too... if you find a girl in a civilian setting you can date her, at no point in our obligations does it say that when you date you have to discuss your profession... yes it usually comes up within the first 2 minutes of talking but still... you are ok to date enlisted unless it interferes with work... yes its in law, but nobody will prosecute you for who you date unless you bang some married enlisted chick and her husband comes after you knowing you are an officer... that would be bad...

you just cant date somebody that you know for a fact is enlisted, ie. somebody you run across in teh work place...

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