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Originally posted by Yoepus Am I the only one who has an inkling feeling that if Israel would withdraw from all those places you mentioned above it would still not be enough, and peace would still not exist?

It might not. And do you know something? If that scenario happened the Palestinians would lose most of the support they enjoy from the majority of the international community so surely withdrawing from all occupied territories would present a Israel with a win win situation - if they withdraw and the Palestinians stop the attacks then we have peace, if they carry on the attacks and Israel re-occupies the territories then it will have gained the support of the international community it currently does not enjoy

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Yes, because after 40 YEARS we're all too stupid to figure it out by now? Come on...

Looking around the world today, I think the answer to your question is yes, yes we are too stupid to have figured it out by now...

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Millions of men gave their lives to free people from a holocaust and you want to compare the Nazis to their victims? Wow. How lost we've become...

We went to war with Germany to save Jews from percecution?! I must be thinkin of a different WW2 cos the one I have heard of we went to war with Germany to stop their expansionist polices when they invaded Poland (or in America's case, they joined only when they were attacked themselves and didn't come to anyone's aid but themselves but thats another thread! )

Nobody lifted a finger to help the Jews in Nazi Germany so dont kid yourself that that's what the war was about. The world left them for dead and nobody cared about what Germany did until it effected them...

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Originally posted by EvilTree Looking at political situation, though often times people in Middle East band together through tribal affiliations, they are split religion. (though members of same tribe tend to be of same religion) Take Lebanon for example. You have Sunnis, Shiites and Christians. They don't join other religious groups.

While in general I agree with the above, times do change. Take your example of Lebanon, a country savaged by civil war where what you describe above happened (even the different Christian groups were against each other!), today we see (in very general terms) two political movements - the pro and anti Syrians. The antis consist of Sunni, Druze and Christians, something incomprehensible 15 years ago when each of those groups were the main culprits of the civil war

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Originally posted by George Smiley It might not. And do you know something? If that scenario happened the Palestinians would lose most of the support they enjoy from the majority of the international community so surely withdrawing from all occupied territories would present a Israel with a win win situation - if they withdraw and the Palestinians stop the attacks then we have peace, if they carry on the attacks and Israel re-occupies the territories then it will have gained the support of the international community it currently does not enjoy

I don't think Palestinians give a shit about international community support. As long as other Arab nations support them, they'll get money.

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Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

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Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

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Originally posted by George Smiley While in general I agree with the above, times do change. Take your example of Lebanon, a country savaged by civil war where what you describe above happened (even the different Christian groups were against each other!), today we see (in very general terms) two political movements - the pro and anti Syrians. The antis consist of Sunni, Druze and Christians, something incomprehensible 15 years ago when each of those groups were the main culprits of the civil war

I see this as temporary enemy of my enemy is my friend alliance, though I'm no expert at Lebanese politics.
Though things have been very fucked up in that nation for a long time and I think religious polarization has settled in and only the Syrians have managed to botch this to break through that polarization.

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Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

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Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

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Originally posted by George Smiley It might not. And do you know something? If that scenario happened the Palestinians would lose most of the support they enjoy from the majority of the international community so surely withdrawing from all occupied territories would present a Israel with a win win situation - if they withdraw and the Palestinians stop the attacks then we have peace, if they carry on the attacks and Israel re-occupies the territories then it will have gained the support of the international community it currently does not enjoy

Funny.

Most likely the International community will claim that Israel didn't withdraw from a one acre of some un-irrigable farm land near some corner of some insignificant swath of land. Or perhaps they will clamor that Israel can not really receive peace until it grants Palestinians the right of return, I could go on and on...

I think your idea that Israeli politicians gamble the fate of the Israeli nation on the whims of the international community is indeed full proof! I can't believe it has taken me so long to see this light x5

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Originally posted by EvilTree I don't think Palestinians give a shit about international community support. As long as other Arab nations support them, they'll get money.

I'm sorry but that quote from you tells me all I need to know. You're suffering from a severe lack of knowledge about this topic.

The PA is pretty much all funded by the EU (and to a lesser extent America) but when Hamas won that funding was stopped (and would start again if Hamas renounce their policy of the destruction of Israel). The PA's politicians, civil servants and public workers are not getting paid. So, yes Palestinians DO care about the international comunity and NO they AREN'T getting their money.

In future please dont post if you have no idea what you are talking about. Even if you have an opinion different to mine (which you probably will) make it an informed opinion

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Originally posted by George Smiley We went to war with Germany to save Jews from percecution?! I must be thinkin of a different WW2 cos the one I have heard of we went to war with Germany to stop their expansionist polices when they invaded Poland (or in America's case, they joined only when they were attacked themselves and didn't come to anyone's aid but themselves but thats another thread! ) Nobody lifted a finger to help the Jews in Nazi Germany so dont kid yourself that that's what the war was about. The world left them for dead and nobody cared about what Germany did until it effected them...

Uh...the Holocaust included a lot more than just Jews...
(notice I never singled out 'Jews')

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Originally posted by Yoepus Funny. Most likely the International community will claim that Israel didn't withdraw from a one acre of some un-irrigable farm land near some corner of some insignificant swath of land. Or perhaps they will clamor that Israel can not really receive peace until it grants Palestinians the right of return, I could go on and on...

No. The international comunity (ie America, EU, Russia, UN) have agreed on various issues they want to see in an end settlement. The right of return is not a requirement. Neither will the issue of some "insignificant swath of land" become a factor as '67 borders are '67 borders (if you get out of them!)

I would suggest that it is YOU that is using these issues in order to impede a final peaceful settlement (why?)

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I think your idea that Israeli politicians gamble the fate of the Israeli nation on the whims of the international community is indeed full proof! I can't believe it has taken me so long to see this light x5

Fate of the Israeli nation?! Don't tell me you buy into that nonesense about existiential threats? Do you honestly believe the Palestinians are capable of "destroying" Israel? I fail to see what difference it would make if you withdrew your line of defence back to 67 borders. Your military is only in the West Bank to thwart an attack from Jordan or Iraq and how likely is that gonna happen now? It will never happen. Failing that, the only reason you occupy the West Bank is to protect the settlers. It poses no security benefits to Israel proper to have your troops there, in fact it is detrimental to your security as it pisses the Palestinians off, they have their lives disrupted and land stolen.

Evacuate the settlements and you will have no need to occupy the West Bank, then we'll take it from there.

But Israel needs to make the first step, and there is no valid reason why it shouldn't...and I am keen to hear a valid reason if you have one?

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Uh...the Holocaust included a lot more than just Jews... (notice I never singled out 'Jews')

What difference does that make to my point?



And if you want me to act like as much as an arsehole as you, then where did I say only Jews were involved in the Holocaust???