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Originally posted by jennypie It's universal because EVERYone has the ability to take charge of themselves, and it has nothing to do with beliefs or values or anything like that. It's a simple black or white thing that you either do, or don't do. Doesn't matter who you are, where you're from, or what you've been taught in life...accountability doesn't change.

I guess I still don't understand what you mean by accountability. Taking charge of themsleves? What does that mean?

In my mind, accountability is inextricably linked to core values.

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Originally posted by jennypie As for being accountable to others...I guess in a way, yes. It depends on the person. I could give a fuck who approves or disapproves of it. I've always been that way though...I do what I want! Plus, once you start owing yourself to anyone but yourself, you stop being true to yourself...and that makes me miserable.

I've heard many people make these kinds of statements. First, I'd say that very few people really get to do what they want. There are constraints on all of us, whether we are aware of them or not, or whether we like it or not.

Second, I'd argue that while it is important to be true to yourself, if you truly want to be happy (however you define "being happy"), you HAVE to consider and account for what other certain people around you think. There is no escaping this. It would be impossible to function if you completely ignored the views and opinions of family members, good friends, significant others, co-workers, employers, mentors, (wankers on TA), etc, etc. An unfortunate reality, but a reality nonetheless.

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Originally posted by SuperJimbo I guess I still don't understand what you mean by accountability. Taking charge of themsleves? What does that mean? In my mind, accountability is inextricably linked to core values.

It means when you do something, you take responsibility for it and don't play the blame game or make excuses or try to justify it with bullshit. Either you thought/said/did/felt something, or you didn't. It IS a simple as that.

Taking charge of oneself? It means you make yourself and only yourself responsible for your happiness or unhappiness. And that's as simple as an attitude adjustment.

It has nothing to do with values at all. You either decide that you're taking action and being conscious in your life, or not.

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Originally posted by SuperJimbo Second, I'd argue that while it is important to be true to yourself, if you truly want to be happy (however you define "being happy"), you HAVE to consider and account for what other certain people around you think. There is no escaping this. It would be impossible to function if you completely ignored the views and opinions of family members, good friends, significant others, co-workers, employers, mentors, (wankers on TA), etc, etc. An unfortunate reality, but a reality nonetheless.

No, I disagree. The only thing that matters in this case is how your choices AFFECT other people, which is different than being concerned with what they're going to think. Why should what someone ELSE thinks have an effect on YOUR life?? Who's driving the ship here?? The idea is ludicrous to me. That might matter to some people, but not to me.

I think worrying about what other people think is just another excuse not to be fully accountable.

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Originally posted by jennypie No, I disagree. The only thing that matters in this case is how your choices AFFECT other people, which is different than being concerned with what they're going to think. Why should what someone ELSE thinks have an effect on YOUR life?? Who's driving the ship here?? The idea is ludicrous to me. That might matter to some people, but not to me. I think worrying about what other people think is just another excuse not to be fully accountable.

I think that staying truthful to yourself involves following your instincts and acting how you best feel is right. The bitch of this entire thing is that it is easy to be tricked.

If you value the lives of the other people around you, then chances are what feels right to you is to act in accordance with what will be beneficial to them.

But, if you value superficial beauty, and whether others think you are beautiful or not you may find yourself conforming to their opinions. That may feel just as "right" as the person who values their family members and wants the best for them.

Then it becomes a dispute about which parts of life are better or more important than others, for example, the well being of a family member, versus the way a certain social group views you. It would be easy to imagine a situation where if you did value both those things, you would be divided about what to do because one action could be beneficial on one side and detrimental on the other.

So even if you want to act "truthfully to yourself", throughout your life it is easy to see how just doing that could result with very different actions.

Part of what I was trying to say with my optimism theory is that it is impossible to ever get your own life philosophy completely correct. There are too many unknowns, and too many things that at a given time you may not have the capability of understanding, which could result in you making the wrong decision even when you think you are making the right one, only to look back later and regret it.

But it is possible to be aware of what you are trying to do your entire life and continually evaluate why it is you are doing the things that you are doing. Treat your entire life as a process where you are trying to get your actions to be the best they can be.

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Originally posted by shanny But it is possible to be aware of what you are trying to do your entire life and continually evaluate why it is you are doing the things that you are doing. Treat your entire life as a process where you are trying to get your actions to be the best they can be.

This last bit sounds a little too platonic for my liking. As a realist, I can't really accept the forms.

And now that I reread the first bit, I am wondering if the

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Originally posted by shanny what you are trying to do your entire life

Is there freewill in these actions that we are not particularily aware of? Sort of a Liebnitzian predicate-in-notion thing going on?

I wanted to post another thought that I had that I think will clarify even further what my original argument was, and it is in reference to Jenny and Andrew's discussion about accountability.

I agree with you completely that being accountable for your actions is something that is important and should be strived for at all times.
I don't see how that conflicts with optimism at all though.

In my marathon attempt of a description of how I live my life I described a number of different sections to my philosophy that I thought was important. One being staying truthful to yourself, another being letting things go. There were many that all came together and I labelled the entire thing Optimism.

The reason I gave it that name was because of the faith based element in the theory. I have reached a point in my life where I think that having faith is important. Something I struggled with for a long time was whether or not there was a God, and whether even if there was one it was one I wanted to worship, or even pray to. Yet I always felt that there was something missing.

I firmly hate the idea of destiny, and that anyone has more control over my actions than me. For that reason praying to a God was not something I ever wanted to do. So what was there to pray when I was in a situation where I wanted to?

To give you an example where optimism can exist completely on it's own.

You are on one side of the world, on the other side of the world a group of miners are trapped in a mine, running out of air. You have no capability of acting or not acting that will make any difference what so ever. No amount of you framing this situation in one way or the next will change what is going to take place. But that does not change that you want the best for those miners. You have the ability to hope for the best or assume the worst. Optimism is having faith that in situations like this one the best result will occur.

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Where Are The Tunes?
Good things happen to good people

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Originally posted by TO guy This last bit sounds a little too platonic for my liking. As a realist, I can't really accept the forms. And now that I reread the first bit, I am wondering if the Is there freewill in these actions that we are not particularily aware of? Sort of a Liebnitzian predicate-in-notion thing going on?

Maybe this is where my own personality is the difference maker here and why you don't agree.

I will explain.
I am not trying to predict what will take place, but I am trying to maximize the enjoyment that I have in my life. At this point I think that the best way to do that is to continually evaluate why I am doing the things that I have, and try to keep as many of these different ideas in mind as possible. I acknowledge that I will change my mind numerous times over my life about how I should act, but currently think that being keeping the end goal in mind (maximizing enjoyment)is best accomplished by evaluating why you do what you do.

If a person was not concerned with maximizing enjoyment as the supreme goal in life, or they didn't think my methods were the best way to accomplish them than they will certainly disagree with all of the arguments I am making.

I just think there is tremendous value to self-reflection.

___________________

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Where Are The Tunes?
Good things happen to good people

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Originally posted by shanny I just think there is tremendous value to self-reflection.

I couldn't agree more.

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Originally posted by shanny I don't see how that conflicts with optimism at all though.

Heh, it doesn't. I said it's a much simpler and more universal form of it.

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Originally posted by jennypie It means when you do something, you take responsibility for it and don't play the blame game or make excuses or try to justify it with bullshit. Either you thought/said/did/felt something, or you didn't. It IS a simple as that.

OK, I understand what you are saying, and I generally agree that people should be responsible for their actions.

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Originally posted by jennypie Taking charge of oneself? It means you make yourself and only yourself responsible for your happiness or unhappiness. And that's as simple as an attitude adjustment.

I am not sure I totally agree. Life is more complicated than this. While I agree that I can take responsibility for my own general happiness, sometimes things are beyond my control. Just because I "adjust my attitude" and take responsibility, doesn't necessarily mean that I will be happy.

I guess what I am getting at is that you just can't be accountable to yourself, because your behavior is influenced by its consequences. And so unless you are living in a bubble, these consequences almost always involve other people. That said, I believe that people are generally more personally accountable when they are motivated by an appropriate incentive, such as praise, money, love, laughter, security, a sense of belonging or community, etc., which, surprise, surprise, almost always involve other people.

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Originally posted by jennypie It has nothing to do with values at all. You either decide that you're taking action and being conscious in your life, or not.

If values are a description of the beliefs of an individual, then isn't your definition of accountability (that people.. "take responsibility ... and don't play the blame game or make excuses or try to justify it with bullshit") really just a description of one of your values? Strict personal accountability is one of your values. lol

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Originally posted by jennypie No, I disagree. The only thing that matters in this case is how your choices AFFECT other people, which is different than being concerned with what they're going to think. Why should what someone ELSE thinks have an effect on YOUR life?? Who's driving the ship here?? The idea is ludicrous to me. That might matter to some people, but not to me.

Huh? How can you not be concerned about what other people think, when many of the consequences of your actions are going to impact YOU?

I bet you care about what other people think a lot more that you are leading on. Maybe not about what I think, or some of the the people here on TA think, but there has to be people in your life who's opinions matter to you. Come on, you're tough, but not that tough.

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Originally posted by jennypie I think worrying about what other people think is just another excuse not to be fully accountable.

Ha. I call it living in the real world.

I'm not asking you to agree with me. That's how I live, plain and simple. I'm not asking you to believe me either. I shouldn't have said anything, I knew it wouldn't be understood the way I meant it.

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Originally posted by jennypie I'm not asking you to agree with me. That's how I live, plain and simple. I'm not asking you to believe me either. I shouldn't have said anything, I knew it wouldn't be understood the way I meant it.

Hey now, I appreciate your comments and that you made the effort to share your views. It honestly helped me think about a bunch of things I hadn't thought about in a while. Thanks.

P.S. Nobody knows anything.