quote:

Originally posted by The Arbiter EDIT: Don't give me ethnic cleansing resulting in civil war either. I want a war similar to Iraq's were a specific military aim was to attack religious sect's and innocent civilians to gain 'Power'.

How bout you put some more limits on the examples I give you to strengthen your argument? How about the conflict can only be between Muslim sects? And it can only have occured after 2003? And that it must have happened in Iraq?

Damn, I can't think of any more examples!

Angolian Civil War - Can't see any evidence that civilians were specifically targetted. If you are reffering to the 500,000 kill count, that's pretty piddly for military losses for a 27 year war.

Burundi Civl War - Evidence of specific civilian targetting is unclear. There is refference's of 'Thousands' being killed by the Tutsis, but wether the deathtoll is military of civilian is not explained.

The Rwandan Civil War - The genocide you are likely refferring to was a revenge attack with no specific political goal.

Sierra Leone Civil War - No refferences to specific military targetting of civilians.

I've had enough of these examples, they fail to answer my query. I want you to list examples of

specific military targetting of civilians with tactical intent. Racially motivated tribal ethnic cleanses are not relevant to Iraq as the issue is religion and wether it is tactically viable to attain the goal's you claim with civilian cleansing. In all the wars I can be arsed to so far read the war ended with military on military combat and specific targetting of military installations and specific figures of tactical value. Civilian deaths are either indirectly caused or are triggered by tribal revenge attacks. If this is your intended comparison to the Iraqi conflict than no political and religious unity is possible.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley How bout you put some more limits on the examples I give you to strengthen your argument? How about the conflict can only be between Muslim sects? And it can only have occured after 2003? And that it must have happened in Iraq? Damn, I can't think of any more examples!

You are the one who started claiming other war's are evidence of intent in this one. If you want that point to stand you have to make a logical and valid comparison. Vearing off into tribal civil wars were there isnt any kindof real military presence beyond the mob are not comparable to Iraq.

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Dont expect profoundness so much as relentless and pathological destruction.

But the military in Iraq are not targetting civilians are they?

The militia is the 'military' Im talking about. Not exactly, but that's the best way to describe them. Hell, they're coordinated enough for tactical assasination's of goverment figure's and rival militia command structure's, but if their goals include religious unity specifically targetting civilians which (By coincedence according to you) have different religious belief's Im afraid that simply isnt logical.

___________________
Dont expect profoundness so much as relentless and pathological destruction.

quote:

Originally posted by The Arbiter The militia is the 'military' Im talking about. Not exactly, but that's the best way to describe them. Hell, they're coordinated enough for tactical assasination's of goverment figure's and rival militia command structure's, but if their goals include religious unity specifically targetting civilians which (By coincedence according to you) have different religious belief's Im afraid that simply isnt logical.

Right, so you want examples of when a militia/paramilitary/guerilla/commando/terrorist (ie non-state) group has specifically targetted civilians?

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Originally posted by George Smiley That's just simply not true. You're suggesting their end game is to kill non-Muslims - rubbish. Their aim is to implement a political ideology which, counter to your belief, enshrines the rights of Christians and Jews within that society (albeit with less rights than Muslims)

Yes...they're called, "Dhimmis"...

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"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by George Smiley Right, so you want examples of when a militia/paramilitary/guerilla/commando/terrorist (ie non-state) group has specifically targetted civilians?

Sigh. There isnt any real comparitable civil war to this one. That's my point and my point at it's very core is this war is not being fought in a manner that reflect's your opinion.

___________________
Dont expect profoundness so much as relentless and pathological destruction.

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Originally posted by The Arbiter Sigh. There isnt any real comparitable civil war to this one. That's my point and my point at it's very core is this war is not being fought in a manner that reflect's your opinion.

No what you've done is decide exactly what we can compare and what we cannot compare, which leaves us with nothing.

Iraq is a civil war between two (or more) ethnic/cultural groups competing for power - just like every civil war in history.

Ever heard of Lebanon?

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Yes...they're called, "Dhimmis"...

And Christians call others "heathens" and Jews call others "gentiles"

What's your point?

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Originally posted by George Smiley No what you've done is decide exactly what we can compare and what we cannot compare, which leaves us with nothing. Iraq is a civil war between two (or more) ethnic/cultural groups competing for power - just like every civil war in history. Ever heard of Lebanon?

You make it comparable to anything to help your argument, I restrict it to specific comparison's to help my argument, then we have to prove that our idea of a comparison is more logical. That's how debate works mate. Instead of doing that you've been insistant on the fact that I am restricting your comparison's which I am not denying instead of actually telling me why your comparison's work.

Now let me explain why your comparison's arnt working a second time. *Deep Breaths* We are looking for fundamental similarities in tactics, military/militia action and political climate. Only through this comparison will we find an answer going on experience from previous civil war's. Now I maintain there has been no similar war's and that your origonal argument's basis was on the fact that all civil wars compare. So, what are we looking for to get a sharp comparison?

Tactics/military or militia action: We are looking for religious secular militia's who specifically target militia's of other religious beleif's. (Wether this is coincedence or not.) Using suicidal attacks and specific assasination job's, we also need to look at daily attacks on civilians of different religious beliefs, attacks that do not help them aspire to political goals of any nature let alone of religious unity. This is the most important part of the comparison as it's this part of said comparison that the entire argument is based on.

Political Climate: We are looking for a political climate atleast similar. Religious/secular divide's in goverment including re-occuring tensions from the drafting of the constitution.

My argument is that a power struggle is taking place, somthing I never denied but that the war is resulting in religious ethnic cleansing in Iraq that is not relevant to any power struggle. Now, you can spurt whatever bullshit you like about the political goals of these people, but religious unity is not one of them.

___________________
Dont expect profoundness so much as relentless and pathological destruction.

quote:

Originally posted by The Arbiter My argument is that a power struggle is taking place, somthing I never denied but that the war is resulting in religious ethnic cleansing in Iraq that is not relevant to any power struggle.

My God you don't half make it easy for people to understand what exactly you're jabbering on about do you?! Do YOU even know what your point is any more?!

So there IS a power struggle and it IS between two (or more) ethnic/cultural/religious groups. And this is somehow unique to Iraq?

You think two opposing religious groups have never fought civil wars before over who gets to control the country?

How do you think the State of Israel was created?!

Anyway...I ask you again, ever heard of the Lebanese civil war? How is that any different to Iraq?

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Now, you can spurt whatever bullshit you like about the political goals of these people, but religious unity is not one of them.

Now you've gone in a complete circle!

You're inventing things to argue against which I've never said!

The aim of all competing factions in Iraq is control of the country, or at least more power...

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Originally posted by LazFX Also this... quote: But the main Hindu nationalist party -- which rose to prominence after the Babri mosque at the site was demolished in 1992 by Hindu extremists -- quickly called for nationwide protests Wednesday and for a general strike in Uttar Pradesh state, where Ayodhya is situated. BJP leaders described the strike as an "attack on Hindu faith" and demanded the resignations of the federal and Uttar Pradesh state home ministers for the "laxity" which allowed the militants to storm the site. now do you want to redo your statement??

You are looking at only one side of a complex Hindu-Muslim communal problem which date back to the time when Muslim rulers invaded India and forcibly converted scores of Hindus into Islam and killed those who refused to convert. The Babri mosque is alleged to have been bulit on the site of a Hindu temple of a very popular deity. Ayodhya, the city where this incident took place is considered by many Hindus to be a sacred city. It must be noted that Hindu leaders have never attempted to convert people of other faiths into Hinduism, ever. Fundamentally, Hinduism does not believe in conversion. It has been attacked again and again by other faiths, particularly Islam and Christianity. The Muslims and Christians in India are all Hindus who were converted back in the 15th or 16th century. Christian missionaries have gripped rural and backward parts of India and have carried out systematic conversions. The name of Mother Teresa immediately comes to my mind. These missionaries feed poor and homeless solely with the intention of converting them into Christianity. There have been cases where Hindu fundamentalists who attempted to stop the missionary practices were murdered. Such activities only help to stoke tensions and at times things reach a point where the more radical elements of Hinduism feel threatened enough to retaliate. I am not saying that only the other religions are to be blamed for the communal tensions in India. The Hindu fundamentalists also play dirty politics and stoke tensions for the sake of votes. What I want to say, is that Hindus do not interfere into other religion's activities unless the activities are directed towards forceful or deceitful conversion.

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Last edited by Omega_M on Sep-14-2007 at 09:46