I enjoyed this little clip, filmed in the Tyva Republic



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-cGfehQ91Q

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen#Reality_vs_dreams

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Originally posted by Trancer-X http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen#Reality_vs_dreams

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According to contemporary teacher Chögyal Namkhai Norbu, in Dzogchen the perceived reality is considered to be unreal. All appearances perceived during the whole life of an individual through all senses, including sounds, smells, tastes and tactile sensations in their totality are like a big dream. It is claimed that on careful examination the dream of life and regular nightly dreams are not very different, and that in their essential nature there is no difference between them.

If you researched things at the proper place, you wouldn't post so many unsubstantiated theories. Yes, being awake and dream states are very similar because when you are dreaming you are basically awake but unconscious and with your motor system shut down. Considering 'reality' is based one electrical impulses coming from the senses to the brain, it wouldn't be weird that neural firing in the brain through the same pathways sensory inputs go through would create a sense of 'reality'. Cognitive science theories and biopsychological theories do a good job at explaining these types of phenomena. Go read up on those instead of trying to find some spiritual or mystical reason for everything that happens in life.

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

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Originally posted by venomX If you researched things at the proper place, you wouldn't post so many unsubstantiated theories. Yes, being awake and dream states are very similar because when you are dreaming you are basically awake but unconscious and with your motor system shut down. Considering 'reality' is based one electrical impulses coming from the senses to the brain, it wouldn't be weird that neural firing in the brain through the same pathways sensory inputs go through would create a sense of 'reality'. Cognitive science theories and biopsychological theories do a good job at explaining these types of phenomena. Go read up on those instead of trying to find some spiritual or mystical reason for everything that happens in life.

Thanks for exemplifying the Dunning-Kruger effect for me. Your sophomoric comment has been duly noted.

Now seriously, I think you're making an improper (and IMO, a highly asinine) assumption because of my html hyperlinks. I've been engaged in a long and intensive study both online and off which has so far only culminated into a relatively intertwining conglomerate of ideas, but it's also only been a couple of years now that I've taken it all that seriously.

I really just don't like to leave any stone unturned.

I don't think that anyone knows decisively what the true nature of our existence is and I think saying that they do would be both spiritually and intellectually dishonest. If anyone knows more than anyone else about it, it would probably be the Shamans, anyhow and not some scientist in a lab, using his man-made and relatively crude tools of a still very limited focus and measure, which we can only operate by using our also very limited scope of five senses to begin with.

Go read up. LMFAO

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Originally posted by Trancer-X Thanks for exemplifying the Dunning-Kruger effect for me. Your sophomoric comment has been duly noted. Now seriously, I think you're making an improper (and IMO, a highly asinine) assumption because of my html hyperlinks. I've been engaged in a long and intensive study both online and off which has so far only culminated into a relatively intertwining conglomerate of ideas, but it's also only been a couple of years now that I've taken it all that seriously. I really just don't like to leave any stone unturned. I don't think that anyone knows decisively what the true nature of our existence is and I think saying that they do would be both spiritually and intellectually dishonest. If anyone knows more than anyone else about it, it would probably be the Shamans, anyhow and not some scientist in a lab, using his man-made and relatively crude tools of a still very limited focus and measure, which we can only operate by using our also very limited scope of five senses to begin with. Go read up. LMFAO

Who is talking here about existence? You were talking about perception and the neurological phenomena that are called dreams, both of which can be readily studied in a lab. I am in now way referring to existentialist questions about the nature of perception or why we percieve of how it came to be that we percieve. Perception as a neurological mechanism has been thouroughly studied. If you want to talk about spirituality, go somewhere else. This thread was never mean to be about spirituality, the discussion was on the way the conscious and subconscious processes operate in the mind and how thoughts are created and used in the brain. These are all neurological phenomena not 'spiritual' phenomena. If you'd really read any credible source on the matter you weren't be saying that theres magic stuff that makes thoughts happen.

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

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Originally posted by venomX Who is talking here about existence? You were talking about perception and the neurological phenomena that are called dreams, both of which can be readily studied in a lab. I am in now way referring to existentialist questions about the nature of perception or why we percieve of how it came to be that we percieve. Perception as a neurological mechanism has been thouroughly studied. If you want to talk about spirituality, go somewhere else. This thread was never mean to be about spirituality, the discussion was on the way the conscious and subconscious processes operate in the mind and how thoughts are created and used in the brain. These are all neurological phenomena not 'spiritual' phenomena. If you'd really read any credible source on the matter you weren't be saying that theres magic stuff that makes thoughts happen.

I think you're confused. This thread is entitled "Consciousness" and not "Perception." You don't have to go into a rant just because I touched upon what is considered to be higher or elevated consciousness.

Anyway, I could have run with it a lot more if I wanted to...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consci..._%28Buddhism%29

Whoah, how dare them try to study consciousness without scientific equipment like an EKG!!!

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Maja D'Aoust, lecturer, PRS Librarian and Masters Degree Candidate at UPR, will examine the purposes, practices and implications of the world's oldest spiritual practices. The original purveyors of consciousness studies and transformational psychology were the Shamans. As the world's oldest spiritual pursuit, Shamanism contains within its disciplines the mysteries of accessing and coming into dialogue with the hidden parts of our individual and collective consciousness. In this lecture series we will uncover the history, practices and pertinence of the Shamans over time, bringing these concepts into the 21st century. In order to truly understand consciousness, psychology, healing and spiritual studies, we must examine the practices of their earliest students that we may grow and evolve from their teaching into the future. http://www.prs.org/events.htm#Maja

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Whatsoever quits the Laya (homogeneous) state, becomes active conscious life. Individual consciousness emanates from, and returns into Absolute consciousness, which is eternal MOTION (the alchemical solvent of Life.) Whatever that be which thinks, which understands, which wills, which acts, it is something celestial and divine, and upon that account must necessarily be eternal. - Cicero

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Originally posted by Trancer-X I think you're confused. This thread is entitled "Consciousness" and not "Perception." You don't have to go into a rant just because I touched upon what is considered to be higher or elevated consciousness. Anyway, I could have run with it a lot more if I wanted to... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consci..._%28Buddhism%29

Nah mate, you seem to be confused. Firstly, the title of the thread is Consciousness, but if you read any of the posts, subey was referring to how conscious processes or thoughts compare to unconscious ones and how he believes that conscious processes just seem to be an extension of unconscious processes. Apart from some minor details I was pretty much in agreement with him/her. Then you jumped in with a post about how dreams seem to be very much like being 'awake'. The information you posted didn't deal with consciousness however, it dealt with perception, considering they emphasized how the perception part of dreams is what makes them feel so 'real'. Then I replied in kind, talking about perception. Now, if you could get what you are talking about straight instead of posting a quote by Cicero (who I think was brilliant at rhetoric, but had no clue about the workings of the brain) and another one by some person that studies shamanism, but does not study any sort of neurological sciences. Now, why don't you consctruct an argument, with your own words, on how Shamanism, consciousness and 'dreams' vs 'awake' are related, seeing as how you seem to have thrown them in here I am assuming you believe they are somehow connected. This is a challenge. Put up or shut up mate, copy paste won't save you here.

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

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Originally posted by venomX Nah mate, you seem to be confused. (...) Put up or shut up mate, copy paste won't save you here.

No, I fully understood you but you apparently don't seem to get where I'm coming from.

Sure, I was trying to answer Subey's question from a more Mystical standpoint, so what? The debate obviously still rages on despite all of the advancements in scientific technology.

Here, just for you. Ctrl-V

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Originally posted by Subey in response to venomX I don't disagree in principle with any of your examples. The problem is that none of them shed light on where the conscious thought might be originating.

Much to someone's chagrin, that's where I was trying to chime in.

I don't personally subscribe to the scientific oversimplification that is venomX's definition of consciousness. I think that there has to be a lot more to it than it's simply being a construct of our neurological mechanism.