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Originally posted by Clovis Nope, but we would not be able to hide behind religion when following them. Something else maybe, but no longer in the name of some fictional character in a book.

let me steal an excerpt from dawkins' book since i know people of faith will avoid exposing themselves to it as a matter of faith...

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It is easy for religious faith, even if it is irrational in itself, to lead a sane and decent person, by rational, logical steps, to do terrible things. There is a logical path from religious faith to evil deeds. There is no logical path from atheism to evil deeds. Of course, many evil deeds are done by individuals who happen to be atheists. But it can never be rational to say that, because of my nonbelief in religion, it would be good to be cruel, to murder, to oppress women, or to perpetrate any of the evils on the Hitchens list. The following quotation from the Nobel prize winning physicist Steven Weinberg has become well known, but it is so devastatingly true that it is worth quoting again and again: “With or without [religion] you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.”

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But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.

That's just not true.

One word: nationalism.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles That's just not true. One word: nationalism.

that makes the statement incomplete, not untrue.

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I think what everyone should be getting out of this discussion is that everyone has the answer and if we all would just believe what everyone else with the correct answer believed, everything would be okay. However, given that will never happen, how about we instead argue over a book written by a choad-ass athiest, like myself, to shove his views in everyone else's face.

Do not tell me he does not, because I saw the documentaries he did which directly reflected his book, and he was particularly harsh on religious persons. He has an agenda, and whether you believe it or not (I do) he is not a good example of athiests. I have always prided myself on being the one that didn't shove my beliefs down someone else's throat. If someone asked, fine, but otherwise I believed what I wanted and let others decide for themselves. Richard does not abide by this simple, and common courtesy. I like his writing and documentaries, but his approach to people is wrong often times. He should do all athiests a favor and stop representing us poorly.

and the point you keep missing is that atheists like yourself were a quiet minority until religious fundamentalism became a big hit with a new wave of religious radicals imposing their "personal" values upon the rest of society... ie: abortion, stem cell research, gay marriage, terry schiavo, intelligent design/public school content, hpv vaccination, 10 commandments bs, geologic revisionism, etc. if the jesusfreaks want to start insisting what they believe is right for everyone on the planet, then i commend the atheists who bite back...

and if you really want to point out which side has the loudest and most obnoxious characters, well... i really don't think any christian wants to go there

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To get rid of subjective experience is to get rid of everything to do with the creative mind. To me, and you can argue it all you want, but to deny the existence of God is to deny the existence of CREATIVITY i.e. the human ability to create worlds through art. Because art exists, and science can be argued as an "art".

To make everything have a rational or "evidence" based approach is to say "whatever exists, exists just as long as I can see it first hand", but that then runs into the argument that we can't readily experience what someone else is..i.e. we have individual consciousness. One person might perceive the world in one way, and someone else the other, but it's EQUALLY if not MORE irrational to say "the world exists only through objective reasoning" or "rational-evidence based conclusions" i.e. deduction. Reality in and of itself is an act of creation...things just don't "pop" up for no reason, that makes no sense.

So a tree is alive because of a SEED not because it just appears. The same with most other life. Humans are born through the act of creation. So wouldn't that make sense then that something created the Universe, that the Earth was created by some force. No I am not arguing for biblical creationism or ID, but merely stating that something cannot come out of nothing. And religious beliefs like the afterlife and soul have been around for thousands of years. More people are theistic (or at least agnostic) than "atheistic" if we lived in a world of atheism, then most likely science would turn into a religion I think or worship of the state/leader (like North Korea). Religion and science were once intertwined and still are in tribal societies (Shaman are equally doctors/healers as they are priests, Native American's have "medicine men", science and religion are not these two extreme spheres of knowledge like they are here in the West, rather they are different but related ways of looking at the world).

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Originally posted by Spirit5

Actually something CAN come out of nothing. Do some research other than the bible.

Anyways, i do hope that most of the theists here realise that we're not mocking any of your beliefs. Science hasnt figured out everything,but we're getting there. In the mean time, go ahead.. pray.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN there arent any merits of developing statutes from superstition. laws should be able to stand by themselves, without the need to be propped up by unsubstantiated magicks.

Exactly. Morals is just rationalism applied to human interactions. It goes like this: because I can see that I am the same as the next man, I know that I shouldn't murder him, just as I wouldn't want him to murder me. See, no God involved there. Adding "...because God said so" is completely unnecessary.

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To get rid of subjective experience is to get rid of everything to do with the creative mind. To me, and you can argue it all you want, but to deny the existence of God is to deny the existence of CREATIVITY i.e. the human ability to create worlds through art. Because art exists, and science can be argued as an "art". ... So a tree is alive because of a SEED not because it just appears. The same with most other life. Humans are born through the act of creation. So wouldn't that make sense then that something created the Universe, that the Earth was created by some force. No I am not arguing for biblical creationism or ID, but merely stating that something cannot come out of nothing. ...

1 - subjective experience does not necessarily mean god. read "the self aware universe" by amit goswami

2 - i know plenty of creative atheists

3 - you say that something created the universe yet in the next sentence said that something cannot come from nothing? this is the age old dilemma and why it doesn't really matter what the hell you believe in, as long as you aren't killing, raping, disrespecting, etc other people because they don't believe what you believe.

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Originally posted by R!CH and the point you keep missing is that atheists like yourself were a quiet minority until religious fundamentalism became a big hit with a new wave of religious radicals imposing their "personal" values upon the rest of society... ie: abortion, stem cell research, gay marriage, terry schiavo, intelligent design/public school content, hpv vaccination, 10 commandments bs, geologic revisionism, etc. if the jesusfreaks want to start insisting what they believe is right for everyone on the planet, then i commend the atheists who bite back...

Obviously not comparable in terms of the extent of violence used, but your line of thinking sounds a lot like the justification that terrorists use for their actions. Passive resistence, like the poster above you, is the way to go!

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Originally posted by trewqy In the mean time, go ahead.. pray.

THANKS, MAN!!!!

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Originally posted by nefardec 3 - you say that something created the universe yet in the next sentence said that something cannot come from nothing? this is the age old dilemma and why it doesn't really matter what the hell you believe in, as long as you aren't killing, raping, disrespecting, etc other people because they don't believe what you believe.

Fucking brilliant. Thank you.

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Originally posted by fayraree THANKS, MAN!!!!

no problems. Praise be to Allah.