lol, oops...brain fart

point still stands...it's been more aggressively paid down in the past, resulting in substantial interest savings.

just as there is a compounding interest effect over time with investment, so too there is in interest savings when paying down principal more quickly.

shifting that 12 billion in GST revenue against the debt would result in substantial interest savings now and even moreso over time.

problem...this administration (or any other) won't be around to reap the benefits, so it's easier/more attractive to provide a very visible GST tax cut in an attempt to hold onto power.

it's an unfortunate aspect of politics. while shorter terms safeguard against complacency and ensure accountability, long term planning that might be a greater benefit the country takes a back seat to a short term agenda of immediate, visible actions (like a GST cut). no one is guaranteed to remain in power long enough for long-term planning to be attractive. I'm sure that's part of why no one gives a shit about spending a lot of money on the environment, R&D, etc...because they won't be around to reap the political rewards.

I don't think that means that we, as people who will be around for a long time in this country, shouldn't push for long term planning vs. a short term "sounds good" agenda from all of our politicians.

The funny thing about all this is that if the Tories had done what Mark and most other lefties are asking for, they'd THEN start bitching about how the Tories broke their promise to reduce the GST by 2%. Let's not forget that Mulroney's initial purpose for the GST was to pay down the staggering debt, and as such, was meant to be temporary.

It's done, it's down to 5%, and they haven't promised to lower it any more. I highly doubt that they will. Either way, it's refreshing to see a Government that keeps its word on promises made.

I, like the rest of you, WOULD like to see an increase in spending on infrastructure. But from the start, Harper has said that if Municipalities and Provinces want more money, they should raise their taxes to meet the needs of their constituents, as he's just given said governments a lot of tax-room to do so. Hazel McCallion put it very well when Mississauga's property taxes were hiked this year. "You just got a big tax break, instead of the feds spending it on our infrastructure. That means we have to take some of that tax-break BACK to pay for the things the Feds won't give us money for." I can agree with a tax-hike that's put in those words. It also means that taxes are raised and lowered based on smaller, regional territories (note: provinces/cities that need more money = higher taxes, duh), rather than all the money going to the feds to be dolled out as they please.

The Tories have also repeatedly said that the money for infrastructure is available in some Cities package they introduced, but the request for funds haven't been coming in. I don't know how to research that fund and find out what it's all about, but they make it seem as if the obstacle for the infrastructure money is the paper-work, not that the money isn't actually there to be spent. Hopefully one of you politic nerds will be able to find out what I'm talking about.

Bottom line is, they made a commitment, and kept it. Until they start promising things I'm NOT in favour of, I'm good with a government that keeps the promises they make.

PS: MarkT, you talk a lot about how aggressive the liberals had been paying down the national debt. Do you think the Liberals would have been so capable of paying down the debt if Mulroney hadn't introduced the GST AND signed NAFTA? You hold the Liberals in high regard for a party that got a free ride on the benefits of Mulroney's decisions.

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Water, Fire, Earth, Wind, Heart???
These forces are supposed to combine to create Captain Planet?
Bullshit.
Those forces combine to create a soaking, boiling mudstorm on Valentine's Day.

I don't think you can speak for me in that regard. I've said on numerous occassions that I am not in favour of a GST cut, period.

If the CPC broke their promise to cut it twice, and instead further reduced the debt, or any of the other options listed, I'd have praised the change of heart (while indeed mocking them for breaking their promise, lol, but I'd still be happy about it).

politicians keeping promises is great, provided one agrees with what was promised in the first place...which I do not.

I think it's extremely unfair to imply that Mulroney's GST and NAFTA are what allowed all subsequent administrations to make their financial decisions.

Once again, the CPC cannot be criticized...and now what the Liberals did in the past was only because of some groundwork laid by a previous Conservative gov't.

right.

quote:

Originally posted by MarkT I don't think you can speak for me in that regard. I've said on numerous occassions that I am not in favour of a GST cut, period. If the CPC broke their promise to cut it twice, and instead further reduced the debt, or any of the other options listed, I'd have praised the change of heart (while indeed mocking them for breaking their promise, lol, but I'd still be happy about it). politicians keeping promises is great, provided one agrees with what was promised in the first place...which I do not. I think it's extremely unfair to imply that Mulroney's GST and NAFTA are what allowed all subsequent administrations to make their financial decisions. Once again, the CPC cannot be criticized...and now what the Liberals did in the past was only because of some groundwork laid by a previous Conservative gov't. right.

The GST added an instant I-don't-even-know-how-many billions of dollars to the Federal coffers. Exports increased by a HUGE margin thanks to NAFTA and created a HUGE windfall of cash for the feds. To call it 'unfair' to imply that the GST, NAFTA and yes, some big spending cuts by the Liberals were the sole contributors to the new-found ability of our government to balance the books, pay down our debt, AND pay for all the social services we enjoy is either very naive, or denial.

Go ahead and criticize the CPC. I switch back and forth between parties based firstly on who seems genuine, and backs it up with action, and secondly on whether or not I agree with what they're doing. The Liberals did nothing and stole our money, that's a FANTASTIC record over the course of 13 years. I voted for Paul Martin because I felt he deserved a chance to change things and improve our country. He did nothing and promised everything. Now we have another Liberal candidate who sat around doing nothing in Chretien's cabinet spouting pipe-dream rhetoric about the environment, and doing little else. As much as I try to stay moderate, the Liberals sure do make it VERY easy to stay a conservative these days.

On the flip-side we have the Tories led by Harper, who have kept most of their promises (although the wait-times guarantee was a bunch of hot-air, but so is every other promise made in regards to health-care from all parties, we need an overhaul of the entire system, not simply more money and wait-times promises) and are continuing to keep the books balanced and pay down the debt. That speaks of integrity to me, integrity that the Liberals don't have. Liberals make bold promises, then break them all and govern like Conservatives. Until the CPC starts promising things I don't agree with, or start breaking their election promises as blatantly as the Liberals, they have my vote.

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Captain Planet is gey.
Water, Fire, Earth, Wind, Heart???
These forces are supposed to combine to create Captain Planet?
Bullshit.
Those forces combine to create a soaking, boiling mudstorm on Valentine's Day.

Now I honnestly expect massive personal income taxes reduction now that the GST has been reduced. Its time to give room to provinces to hike theirs to pay the bills like Harper has said. (he still barely touched the personal income taxes).

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quote:

Originally posted by Spam ...

keep in mind the GST replaced the 13.5% FST and was intended to be revenue neutral (though that no doubt proved not to be the case over time). But I would be curious to see the "net gain" in federal coffers. Early figures I found indicated $50 billion gross, but only $20 billon net after costs, rebates, payouts to comp provinces for HST implementation, etc. Then, of course, you need to subtract whatever the gov't was collecting from the FST. I'm honestly curious though and not suggesting the GST did NOT add billions...I just haven't found the actual figures.

It's kind of hard to debate though when you say things like "the Liberals did nothing and stole our money, that's a FANTASTIC record over the course of 13 years". come on. even the most ardant Liberal hater can't stand behind such sweeping, dismissive statements, lol.

in any case, this has gone *way* off track...

my point is to suggest that the ~$12 billion dollars in GST revenue could have been put to better use by the CPC and that it's more PR move than sound policy.

if you disagree, then I'd like to see your argument for why the GST cuts were the BEST option...and answering that it's great to see a party stick to its election promises is NOT an valid argument in that regard. To say it's 'better than nothing' isn't valid either. Why is this the BEST option...because shouldn't we hold that standard for all of our administrations...doing what is BEST for the country?

I hope you're hungry!

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Dark Dirty Tech Tribal. | Hands in air (trance) and feet on the floor (house).

I am! I'm eating a sub right now

I can't wait for that extra few cents in GST savings on my future sub purchases...I'll be freakin' rich!

I save 2 cents on every extra large coffee I buy at Tim Hortons....that equals a total savings of approximately $8.00 a year for me....WOW...I think I will buy that 52" Plasma with all the money I am saving.

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quote:

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Last edited by Moral Hazard on Apr-26-2011 at 07:48

Bitch bitch whine whine

moan

quote:

Originally posted by infinity HiGH moan

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