Pkc, why do you hate America?

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN it wasn't "rule by nobility". and if you look at wiki and the history of democracy, you will notice quite a lot of other entrants, most of which will be ignored because americans just love to think highly of themselves. indeed, so, youre still incorrect.

No I'm not. I said the American democracy is the oldest one today. Your own article says that the Corsican republic was destroyed by the French. The American democracy has been a continuous 232 years long.

Let me clarify myself again...."western liberal democracy currently existing today"...my bad again...

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Originally posted by Sunsnail Pkc, why do you hate America?

I don’t hate america. Indeed, half of my favourite popular culture originates in the good ol US of A. but I am not a fan of people (read: americans) saying things like "oh, ours was the first democracy ever" when it wasn't, and even had it been, it was merely the culmination of democratic influence that had been around for at least 500 years before US independence. I hate the way the US has hijacked the real meanings of liberalism or conservatism. I hate that the US seems so happy to tell others what to do when half the bloody country couldn’t even find the middle east on a map. I get sick and tired of hearing about how fucking wonderful the country is (our forefathers said this! Oooh, we invented democracy! we have the biggest bombs ever!) when its quite often the poster child for everything that's wrong with the western world. I hate the level of ignorance that goes hand in hand with arrogance from so many of its citizens (read some of the retarded responses in this thread, or the gun thread). I hate the fact that so many americans have their heads so far up their fucking arses that any criticism of their holy democratic infrastructure is considered heresy, and a lone (often misguided) reference to the infallible forefathers is considered a good enough response by today's TA massive.

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Originally posted by Krypton No I'm not. I said the American democracy is the oldest one today. Your own article says that the Corsican republic was destroyed by the French. The American democracy has been a continuous 232 years long. Let me clarify myself again...."western liberal democracy currently existing today"...my bad again...

You asked for him to give any other country that gave the right to vote to any citizens before the US did...

Careful Krypton, you're walking into a trap on this one.

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Originally posted by Krypton No I'm not. I said the American democracy is the oldest one today. Your own article says that the Corsican republic was destroyed by the French. The American democracy has been a continuous 232 years long. Let me clarify myself again...."western liberal democracy currently existing today"...my bad again...

hehehe. well, to be honest, i don't really consider the whole continuity factor as particularly important or relevant. just because the poor old corsican's got thrashed by the french doesn't mean that they don't count

what you should say is "western liberal UNINTERRUPTED democracy " haha. because, as far as i am aware, corsica is a democracy today

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN I hate the way the US has hijacked the real meanings of liberalism or conservatism.

The non-American usage of "liberalism" makes so much more sense.

Never thought we'de finally be on the same page...

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov You asked for him to give any other country that gave the right to vote to any citizens before the US did... Careful Krypton, you're walking into a trap on this one.

We worked it out...

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Originally posted by Krypton We worked it out...

I'm just surprised that PKC restrained from mentioning that in 1904 Australia became the second state to grant universal voting rights (hint: the US was not the first).

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I'm just surprised that PKC restrained from mentioning that in 1904 Australia became the second state to grant universal voting rights (hint: the US was not the first).

Well, I never said universal suffrage. We've given some form of voting rights for hundreds of years continuously.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I'm just surprised that PKC restrained from mentioning that in 1904 Australia became the second state to grant universal voting rights (hint: the US was not the first).

Beaten to the punch by new zealand wasnt it? How embarrassing.

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Originally posted by Krypton Well, I never said universal suffrage. We've given some form of voting rights for hundreds of years continuously.

What is your definition of a modern liberal democracy? Does it simply need to be a modern liberal democracy for white male land-owners? Because that's what the Founding Fathers set up. Don't take the political context out of their work - they may have been brilliant individuals, but they excluded certain populations from your modern liberal rights for a reason.

The greatest fallacy in the American educational system is the imperviousness of the Founding Fathers, and their seemingly divine and infallible nature. Not only is it naive to talk about them as a singular entity, but it's also, quite frankly, idolization to hold them up as more than a collection of brilliant (but mortal) politicians.

Should we not be holding the politicians in New Zealand, which was the first state to incorporate truly universal suffrage as "above mere politicians"?

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