The democracy of Afghanistan is a sham. Go ahead NATO. Keep your troops there. Prolong the inevitable.

It appears that the problems in Afghanistan have been compounded by a profound lack of understanding and comprehension of the sitution by the Biden/Obama camp. Biden expects that Karzai should be accountable and do more about corruption and drug trade. Yeah, like Biden/Obama know much about Afghanistan! Joe Biden made a fool out of himself. No wonder why Karzai got pissed

Karzai's comments on switching allegiance to Moscow really raised eyebrows for me. Looks like Karzai is now done.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7870340.stm

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Nosedive in Afghan-US relations Relations between President Karzai's Afghan government and Washington are at an all-time low. As Richard Holbrooke - President Obama's envoy to Afghanistan and Pakistan - prepares to make his first visit to the region since being appointed, the BBC's Ian Pannell in Kabul looks at why the relationship has soured. Afghan President Hamid Karzai speaks at news conference in Kabul on February 4, 2009 Mr Karzai has fallen out of favour Hamid Karzai has become increasingly vociferous in his criticism of American military tactics and has been making half-hearted threats to shift his allegiance to Moscow if he does not get his way. Washington has yet to publicly declare its hand but a series of well-placed leaks, briefs and snubs have raised the prospect that it could move its support elsewhere in this year's presidential election. One Afghan newspaper spoke of "a new cold war". A senior Afghan government official says the new Obama administration has insulted President Karzai and one prominent MP accuses America of "running a shadow-government". 'Narco-state' The decline in relations began with a visit last year by Joe Biden, now the vice-president, to Kabul. Joe Biden (centre) arrives for a meeting at the presidential palace in Kabul Joe Biden's meeting with President Karzai reportedly did not go well At the time, as the Democratic vice-presidential candidate, he attended a private meeting with Mr Karzai. A well-placed source describes Mr Biden, exasperated at not getting "straight answers" on drugs and corruption, launching into a verbal tirade and storming out of the meeting. In a country where honour and decorum are second only to God and country, this was less than tactful. On the campaign trail and more recently in confirmation hearings, senior members of President Barack Obama's team have questioned the effectiveness and honesty of Hamid Karzai's government. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's written statement to Congress during her confirmation hearing called Afghanistan a "narco-state" that was "plagued by limited capacity and widespread corruption". She may have been wise enough not to use the phrase in her public testimony but by the time it was reported on the front page of the newspapers in Kabul, it did not really make much difference. 'Potential impediment' Earlier in January the Nato secretary-general wrote an opinion piece about the lack of leadership in the country, laying the blame not at the feet of the Taleban but the lack of governance. Civilians need better protection, says Mr Karzai Then there was a recent article in the New York Times. Quoting anonymous "senior administration officials", it said Washington planned to take a tougher-line with Kabul and that Hamid Karzai was now regarded as "a potential impediment to American goals" in the country. Hamid Karzai is an avid reader of the Western press and is known to be highly sensitive to criticisms they may have of him. Publicly he has not responded but he is now under considerable pressure. His government's writ is limited to Kabul, the north and a few urban spots elsewhere in the country. His own popularity has fallen and some whisper privately and mischievously about his "state of mind". When asked whether the country was heading towards a crisis, one senior political figure responded that the country was already in one. Old Afghan hand President Karzai has been holding a series of meetings with former Mujahedeen commanders in the past few weeks amid suggestions that he is trying to align the country with Russia. US troops in Afghanistan The president wants new rules of engagement for Nato troops That has certainly been his public stance. As well as a deliberately leaked "letter of understanding" with Moscow, President Karzai publicly warned America that unless it supplied the military hardware he wanted, he would look to other countries for support. No-one was in a moment's doubt who this meant. The Russian ambassador, Zamir Kabulov, an old Afghan hand, was seen strutting around parliament last week. He has warned that the US and Nato are repeating the same mistakes of the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. As he was posted to the Soviet Embassy at the time, his opinion is worth considering. Now President Karzai has sent a document to Nato outlining new "rules of engagement". If implemented they would substantially alter the mandate for foreign forces in the country. It seems inconceivable that there could be a real and lasting schism between Kabul and Washington. It will be the job of Richard Holbrooke, the US Special Envoy for Afghanistan and Pakistan, to ensure that does not happen. But the date has been set for Afghanistan's presidential election and the West's disappointment with Hamid Karzai can no longer be disguised. A number of challengers are jostling for American support and in the current climate, their chances are starting to improve.

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I heard Obama is considering to sit down with the Taliban and talk? Is that how we win wars nowdays? we pay the enemy some money and call it a day? what is Obama going to tell all those families who have lost their kids in this war?

Afghanistan will always be Afghanistan and not even the US can change that.more men on the ground isnt going to solve a damn thing over there.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium We shouldn't be sacrificing our limited troops for American agenda. At the same time we are hurting out international reputation and passing up important regions which really need a peacekeeping mission.

I always find it funny the amount of effort Canadians exert when traveling overseas to ensure the natives (of wherever they are traveling) do not think they are americans. The only real differences between americans and canadians are government provided healthcare, a sense of entitlement among some segments of the population to 'entitlements', and you guys say, "aaA" after every other word. The reality is, Canadians need to support american agenda because we buy so much of your shit. Moreover, if canada was ever in a military conflict, the US would provide immediate protection. In fact, if it wasn't for the US, russia probably would have claimed much of Canada's arctic region once oil was discovered. Canada is rather insulated from conflict for two major reasons (i) its isolation, and (ii) its close connection with the US.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 I always find it funny the amount of effort Canadians exert when traveling overseas to ensure the natives (of wherever they are traveling) do not think they are americans. The only real differences between americans and canadians are government provided healthcare, a sense of entitlement among some segments of the population to 'entitlements', and you guys say, "aaA" after every other word. The reality is, Canadians need to support american agenda because we buy so much of your shit. Moreover, if canada was ever in a military conflict, the US would provide immediate protection. In fact, if it wasn't for the US, russia probably would have claimed much of Canada's arctic region once oil was discovered. Canada is rather insulated from conflict for two major reasons (i) its isolation, and (ii) its close connection with the US.

Dont forget those maple syrup covered cheese eating surrender monkeys they have... aka Quebecians!

for everyone crying foul of the foreign armies in afghanistan, what would you have them do?

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN for everyone crying foul of the foreign armies in afghanistan, what would you have them do?

It's not what would we have them do. It's what the politicians need to do. They need to realize the futility of democracy in Afghanistan of all places. And act accordingly by withdrawing foreign troops. This really is sucking our country dry in a time when we're running huge deficits and a gigantic national debt. Never mind the horrible strategic situation, historically, and culturally, in the region. We just don't belong there. Period.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 I always find it funny the amount of effort Canadians exert when traveling overseas to ensure the natives (of wherever they are traveling) do not think they are americans. The only real differences between americans and canadians are government provided healthcare, a sense of entitlement among some segments of the population to 'entitlements', and you guys say, "aaA" after every other word. The reality is, Canadians need to support american agenda because we buy so much of your shit. Moreover, if canada was ever in a military conflict, the US would provide immediate protection. In fact, if it wasn't for the US, russia probably would have claimed much of Canada's arctic region once oil was discovered. Canada is rather insulated from conflict for two major reasons (i) its isolation, and (ii) its close connection with the US.

Canada is the top exporter of oil to USA - dont forget that. You need our trade and resources. Its a mutual economic dependence, friendship, yes. But whats with the rubbish about Russia taking over Canadian Arctic? Russia only claims sovereignity up to the North Pole - not claiming the Canadian territorial waters. The same way Russia isn't threatening Norway ...

Military conflict AGAINST Canada? WOW, thats a new one. And no - we are insulated from conflict because we don't stick our noses into every country's business. But you Americans do. And for that much of the world dislikes you - and for that so many Americans wear Canadian flag pins when travelling abroad. Eh? And you pressure Canada to do your dirty work for you, serve as cannon fodder in Afghanistan, so that we can also drag ourselves down. Good thing is that Canadian economy is slowly but surely being diversified ...

We are doing a lot for USA and if we really start acting like you guys and do what you want us to do then Canada will lose its sovereignty - isn't that obvious! So it's no-brainer than Canada SHOULD have an independent voice, to protect its interests while maintaining good relations with everyone.

Look - if we had it like you Americans did - for example: the banks, we would be really screwed now. But we followed a different path - and decided to keep the banks on the leash and as a result today Canadian banks are stronger than ever, and only little bit affected by the crap going on south of the border. Several Canadian banks have now jumped in the TOP 10 in North America due to decline of many American banks.

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Last edited by Magnetonium on Mar-25-2009 at 10:56

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 I always find it funny the amount of effort Canadians exert when traveling overseas to ensure the natives (of wherever they are traveling) do not think they are americans.

Just an FYI... we do this because we get much better treatment in much of the world when people know we're Canadian as opposed to American. Whether or not this preferential treatment is warranted or not is questionable; however, I can attest that it is the reality.

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The only real differences between americans and canadians are government provided healthcare, a sense of entitlement among some segments of the population to 'entitlements', and you guys say, "aaA" after every other word.

First; it's "eh" not "aaa." Second; on a person to person basis there is very little difference between Canadians and Americans... on a political culture level there are vast differences; albeit subtle.

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The reality is, Canadians need to support american agenda because we buy so much of your shit.

No, the reality is that we need to be good neighbours. This will often require us supporting the US agenda (which we often do) but we can have differences of opinion... our interdependent economies are not going to sever ties simply because we don't do all the US' bidding.... the whole Iraq thing is a good example.

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Moreover, if canada was ever in a military conflict, the US would provide immediate protection.

This is likely true for two reasons; 1) protecting Canada is beneficial to US interests, and 2) the mutual defense pact that is a cornerstone of NATO kind of demands it. While your assertion is true I do find it rather interesting that it has never actually happened... not once... the US had never come to the aid of Canada... ever. The US can't really say the same of Canada though... you guys always seem to forget that.

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In fact, if it wasn't for the NATO, Russia and the US probably would have attempted to claim much of Canada's arctic region once oil was discovered. Canada is rather insulated from conflict for two major reasons (i) its isolation, and (ii) its close connection with NATO.

I just fixed up that last bit for you.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

Last edited by Moral Hazard on Mar-25-2009 at 12:18

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Originally posted by Magnetonium [COLOR=FF7F50] Canada is the top exporter of oil to USA - dont forget that. You need our trade and resources. Its a mutual economic dependence, friendship, yes.

I'm not in total disagreement with you here; however, let's be honest with ourselves... there is economic interdependence with the US and Canada because it is in both of our interests to have it this way. If our trade relationship were to end both countries would suffer; however, the US would have a much easier time finding new suppliers for resources then Canada would finding new markets for same.

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And you pressure Canada to do your dirty work for you, serve as cannon fodder in Afghanistan, so that we can also drag ourselves down.

Don't blame the Americans for our involvement in Afghanistan... that's folly. We are in Afghanistan because our best ally was attacked by an enemy that the Afghan government of the day was sheltering. This is what allies do; they come to each other's defense. Having allies such as we do via NATO serves our interests; in order to maintain such alliances we must assist our allies as we would require them to assist us if the roles were reversed; subsequently, our involvement in Afghanistan (initially at least) serve(s)/(d) our interest.

You're making a classic error that Canadians often make... you're blaming the elements of our foreign policy that are inconsistent with our own view of Canada/Canadians on US influence; however, you're forgetting that in order to protect our interests and safeguard those things that are most "Canadian" we need to support our allies/partners/friends.

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quote:

Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

So much for progress of human rights in Afghanistan! What are the Canadian troops dying for, again? This is ridiculous ...

http://www.thespec.com/News/CanadaWorld/article/540886

quote:

Canada protests Afghan 'rape' law Wives can't refuse sex, leave house or gain child custody April 01, 2009 OTTAWA – Canadian officials contacted the Afghan government yesterday to express concern about new legislation that would reportedly allow men to rape their wives. The Canadian government reacted with outrage following reports that the Karzai administration has approved a wide-ranging family law for the country's Shia minority. The legislation is believed to contain articles that make it illegal for Shia women to refuse their husbands sex, leave the house without permission, or have custody of children, the London-based newspaper The Guardian reported yesterday. Canadian officials contacted the office of President Hamid Karzai, and Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon spoke to two Afghan cabinet ministers yesterday seeking clarification. Karzai's office has so far refused to comment on the legislation. Critics say Karzai's government approved it in a hurry to win support in the upcoming election from ethnic Hazaras – a Shia Muslim minority that constitutes a crucial block of swing voters. Canada, which has lost 116 soldiers in Afghanistan and spent up to $10 billion propping up the Karzai government, has demanded more information about the law. "If these reports are true, this will create serious problems for Canada," said International Trade Minister Stockwell Day. "The onus is on the government of Afghanistan to live up to its responsibilities for human rights, absolutely including rights of women. "If there's any wavering on this point from the government of Afghanistan, this will ... create serious problems and be a serious disappointment for us." Day was fielding questions in the House of Commons about the reported law while Cannon was in Europe attending an international summit on Afghanistan. Late yesterday, Canadian officials said they had learned the law was not yet in effect but that they remained "very concerned."

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

We've been in a constant state of war since the country's birth. If it wasn't Afghanistan it would be somewhere else. Don't kid yourself about that. Warfare is natural.

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