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SniFFleS
Suspended User



Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Toronto

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave Akermanis
CO2 emissions are caused by humans, there is a direct relationship between greenhouse gases and the rise in temperature observed on earth. How can you possibly postulate that humans are not responsible?

The oceans give off thousands more times CO2 than anything we put in the air. The other thing is that the relationship you are talking about is true but rising tempuratures cause an increase in CO2, CO2 does not cause an increase in temperature. There are so many other things that give off CO2 as well volcanoes, leaves etc.... CO2 is also such a small part of the atmosphere and is only a fraction of green house gasses. I don't think you are very much informed on the issues. Haven't you heard? Over the last winter it was so cold that the ice caps have frozen right up!

Old Post Jun-30-2008 00:57  Canada
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DigiNut
You kids get off my lawn!



Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto, Self-proclaimed Centre of the Universe

quote:
Originally posted by MarkT
my post is more a comment that the vast majority of people here probably have made up their mind without even taking the time to skim over the arguments put forth by each side, let alone actually gain a solid understanding of them.

That's fair enough, although I think there are people on both sides of the debate doing that, and you don't really call attention to the ones in support of Kyoto or similar policies.

It's funny how the more the pressure mounts from the environmental groups, the more skeptics seem to come out of the woodwork. Personally, I think it's the blatantly patronizing tone and rabid hate directed toward the skeptics; to people who are merely on the fence, this is insulting and is often enough to push them over to the other side. Because of that, we now for the first time have ignorant skeptics in addition to ignorant believers. I hope that people continue to call us morons and shills and selfish hicks, because it really pisses off Joe Average and gives us right-wing nuts a much better opportunity to explain our position!

Of course it's better for people to be informed than to be ignorant, but if I have to choose, I'll take an ignorant skeptic over an ignorant alarmist any day of the week!


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Old Post Jun-30-2008 01:12  Canada
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MarkT
Automatic Static



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Toronto

^^^ indeed and that's a good point. it's not just the 'naysayers' who are often ignorant, but also the proponents of the various theories and initiatives too.

I think there are plenty of 'green' folk who just jump on whatever bandwagon the environmentalists choose to drive, without bothering to educate themselves or even question if there might be an agenda of some sort.

I also think that many naysayers are simply lazy and don't want to change their more comfy, wasteful ways or accept that all of society is going to have to 'pay' in some sense to be 'green' until being green becomes the norm, rather than the exception, thereby (hopefully) becoming less costly to be so.

as for what's better, the ignorant skeptic or the ignorant alarmist, I suppose that depends on who ends up being right...in which case it may be too late

Old Post Jun-30-2008 02:24  Canada
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Dave Akermanis
Juan Sanchez



Registered: Jul 2007
Location: Toronto, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by SniFFleS
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave Akermanis
CO2 emissions are caused by humans, there is a direct relationship between greenhouse gases and the rise in temperature observed on earth. How can you possibly postulate that humans are not responsible?

The oceans give off thousands more times CO2 than anything we put in the air. The other thing is that the relationship you are talking about is true but rising tempuratures cause an increase in CO2, CO2 does not cause an increase in temperature. There are so many other things that give off CO2 as well volcanoes, leaves etc.... CO2 is also such a small part of the atmosphere and is only a fraction of green house gasses. I don't think you are very much informed on the issues. Haven't you heard? Over the last winter it was so cold that the ice caps have frozen right up!


CO2 is not the only greenhouse gas we are putting in the air. Like I said, its used as a proxy for benchmarking. Whatever you want to believe so that you can keep your head in the sand...


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Old Post Jun-30-2008 16:28  Canada
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DigiNut
You kids get off my lawn!



Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto, Self-proclaimed Centre of the Universe

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Akermanis
CO2 is not the only greenhouse gas we are putting in the air. Like I said, its used as a proxy for benchmarking. Whatever you want to believe so that you can keep your head in the sand...

You've said that twice but it's hard to understand what it is you're getting at. Carbon dioxide isn't a proxy for other greenhouse gases; the most important greenhouse gas is water vapour which has no relationship or correlation whatsoever with carbon dioxide. Methane is also an important factor but the amount nature produces dwarfs anything man-made.

So of what use are CO2 measurements if we're really concerned about other gases? It's not like it's harder to measure water vapour - it's just that the results aren't particularly interesting.


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Old Post Jun-30-2008 17:30  Canada
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Intangible
*FACEPALM*



Registered: Feb 2008
Location: Dancing with strangers in dark rooms - Toronto

quote:
Originally posted by DigiNut


Wow overdose of digi-rants

lol


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Old Post Jun-30-2008 17:34  Canada
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ChemEnhanced
ƒ¶ƒåƒÓƒÛƒnƒéƒßƒåƒnƒÚƒÕƒÞƒ



Registered: Mar 2005
Location: Milton, ON Canada

quote:
Study highlights need to adjust climate models
Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:00pm EDT Email | Print | Share| Reprints | Single Page| Recommend (0) [-] Text [+]



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LONDON, June 25 (Reuters) - Sea spray and microscopic plants from the tropical Atlantic are destroying greenhouse gases in the lower atmosphere at a faster pace than scientists had thought, British researchers said on Wednesday.

The findings published in the journal Nature mean current climate models may need adjusting and they underscore the difficulties in trying to predict future temperature changes, the researchers said.

"One of the key things we need to do in the future is reduce uncertainty around the natural processes that destroy greenhouse gases," said Alastair Lewis of Britain's National Centre for Atmospheric Science, who helped lead the study.

"This is one of the first times we have been able to go and see how those models were doing at predicting the rate of destruction of some greenhouse gases."

Year-round measurements from an observatory on the Cape Verde island of Sao Vicente allowed the team to measure how fast the chemicals bromine and iodine oxide -- produced from sea spray and phytoplankton -- attack and break down ozone.

They found that the chemicals were gobbling up 50 percent more ozone in the part of the lower atmosphere -- about 1 kilometre above the Earth's surface -- than current climate models suggest.

Ozone in the lower atmosphere acts as a greenhouse gas, and its destruction sets off a chain of chemical reactions that leads to the removal of methane, the third most abundant greenhouse gas. In the upper atmosphere it helps shield the planet from harmful solar rays.

The study was also the first to take such readings from the ozone above the open ocean. Researchers say they believe the findings are likely typical of other similar tropical waters.

But the findings also has their worrying aspect, the researchers said.

While the results indicate the atmosphere will clean itself faster in response to decreases in human-generated emissions, they also mean climate models slightly underestimate these greenhouse gases, said Lucy Carpenter, who worked on the study.

"At the moment climate models get the amount of ozone right but they haven't got the destruction rates right," said Carpenter, an atmospheric chemist at York University in Britain.

"It also means the models haven't got the balance between production and destruction; because if methane is being destroyed more rapidly it means there must be more emmissions than we had thought." (Reporting by Michael Kahn; Editing by Maggie Fox and Ralph Boulton)



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Old Post Jun-30-2008 17:56  Canada
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Dave Akermanis
Juan Sanchez



Registered: Jul 2007
Location: Toronto, Canada

quote:
Originally posted by DigiNut
You've said that twice but it's hard to understand what it is you're getting at. Carbon dioxide isn't a proxy for other greenhouse gases; the most important greenhouse gas is water vapour which has no relationship or correlation whatsoever with carbon dioxide. Methane is also an important factor but the amount nature produces dwarfs anything man-made.

So of what use are CO2 measurements if we're really concerned about other gases? It's not like it's harder to measure water vapour - it's just that the results aren't particularly interesting.


What I mean by that is CO2 is the only greenhouse gas they have a reliable method of measuring... but is not the only greenhouse gas emitted into the atmosphere by cars, businesses etc.

One can assume that if Co2 is being emitted that other greenhouse gasses are as well so they use it as a proxy to measure overall greenhouse gas emissions.


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Old Post Jun-30-2008 23:31  Canada
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DigiNut
You kids get off my lawn!



Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto, Self-proclaimed Centre of the Universe

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Akermanis
What I mean by that is CO2 is the only greenhouse gas they have a reliable method of measuring... but is not the only greenhouse gas emitted into the atmosphere by cars, businesses etc.

One can assume that if Co2 is being emitted that other greenhouse gasses are as well so they use it as a proxy to measure overall greenhouse gas emissions.

There's not one single statement in this that's true.

- Carbon dioxide is not the only so-called greenhouse gas we can measure reliably.

- Carbon dioxide makes up the bulk of emissions from human activity. There are of course others (methane from farms, for instance), but farming activity has little to no relationship with cars and factories. Which subsequently means that:

- CO2 emissions are not a valid indicator of "overall greenhouse gas emissions", except in the twisted rationale of CO2 itself being the bulk of emissions and therefore carrying the "overall" curve.

We can and do measure other emissions. Google gives me 351,000 results for "global methane emissions" and even at a conservative 1% useful hit rate, that's a lot of data. To say that we don't, or can't, and that carbon dioxide is a valid benchmark, is either extremely sloppy research or deliberately misleading political posturing.

I'm leaning toward the latter, only because these people probably know that CO2 is just a tiny fraction of the Earth's atmosphere and it's convenient to claim that everything else follows it.


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Old Post Jul-02-2008 02:24  Canada
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MarkT
Automatic Static



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Toronto

The same 'If everyone isn't in, then there's no point' position of the Harper gov't. Wow...what leadership!

quote:
No deal unless big polluters in, PMO says

Jul 02, 2008 04:49 PM
Steve Rennie
THE CANADIAN PRESS

OTTAWA–Stephen Harper will make the case to fellow G8 leaders next week that it's futile to reach a global agreement on climate change without including the world's biggest polluters.

The prime minister will argue that major emitters of greenhouse gases like the United States, China and India must be part of any climate-change pact, Harper spokesman Dimitri Soudas said today.

"At the end of the day, if we don't get an agreement where major emitters play a role in helping to reduce greenhouse-gas emissions, we're simply not making any progress," Soudas told journalists at a pre-summit briefing.

"In order to genuinely tackle climate change and to start seeing concrete results, we need to have major emitters on board. That includes countries like the United States, China and India."

It's a message Harper took to Europe in May when he donned his travelling salesman's hat on a whirlwind trip to France, Germany, Italy and Britain.

Harper's office billed the visit as an opportunity for the prime minister to explain Canada's green plan on an international stage, prior to the G8 summit.

The Group of Eight wealthy industrialized nations faces mounting pressure from environmentalists to devise mid-century targets to halve greenhouse-gas emissions.

There are also expectations that this year's summit on the northern Japanese island of Hokkaido will build on last year's G8 meetings in Germany, where member countries vowed to work toward significant reductions to greenhouse gases.

Clare Demerse, a senior policy analyst at the Pembina Institute, said Canada's opposition to any climate-change deal that doesn't include the big emitters could stunt progress at the coming summit.

"There's a real risk that either they don't make progress from what they said last year, or they even slip back," she said.

Already there's a wide chasm within the G8, and between richer and poorer countries, over how to shoulder the burden of tackling climate change.

That clash of nations manifested itself last December at high-level United Nations talks in Bali, Indonesia, where Canada sided with the United States, Japan and a small group of other countries in opposing specific references to emissions targets for developed countries by 2020.

The Conservatives have staunchly maintained that the battle to cut greenhouse gases is for naught unless all major polluters curb their emissions. Both Canada and the U.S. oppose any new agreement that does not contain targets for reducing greenhouse-gas emissions from the big emitters.

A White House spokesman reiterated this week that the G8 nations alone cannot set effective long-term goals to cut greenhouse-gas emissions worldwide.

"To us, it is not appropriate for the G8 countries alone to set a goal or to pick a numerical target and then seek to impose it on major developing economies," said Dan Price, assistant to U.S. President George W. Bush for international economic affairs.

The UN official in charge of the climate change file, Yvo de Boer, has described this all-or-nothing approach as hypocritical.

The Bali talks last year yielded an agreement that countries would strive for a new global climate-change treaty by the end of next year, covering the period after Kyoto's obligations expire in 2012.

Japan has proposed a post-Kyoto plan to halve global emissions from current levels by 2050. The Japanese plan would earmark US$10 billion to help developing countries cut their greenhouse gases. Tokyo, however, hasn't specified which year it would use as a baseline.

The European members of the G8 – France, Germany, Italy and the U.K. – will likely align together on any climate-change agreement, Demerse said.

She added Canada's position could leave it isolated with the United States at the G8.

The Harper government has also faced scorn at home and abroad for flaunting its obligations under the Kyoto Protocol to cut greenhouse gases six per cent below 1990 levels by 2012.

The Conservatives have pledged to cut greenhouse-gas emissions 20 per cent below 2006 levels by 2020 through a tangle of regulatory measures, a cap-and-trade scheme, investments in green-technology funds and credits for companies that reduced their emissions before 2006.

Key regulations will be tabled next fall, and will likely come into effect in 2010.

Critics charge the Tory plan is less stringent than the Kyoto targets since it uses 2006 as its baseline year, when emissions were higher than 1990 levels. Canada's emissions in 2006 were 721 megatonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent, compared to 592 megatonnes in 1990.

The Conservatives say the Kyoto targets are unattainable, and trying to meet them would tank the economy. Complying with Kyoto, they say, would lower Canada's gross domestic product by 6.5 per cent, cost 276,000 people their jobs, reduce per capita income by 2.9 per cent next year and squander $51 billion in national economic activity.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy has called for a tax on products imported from countries like Canada that don't respect Kyoto.

The G8 includes Britain, Canada, the U.S., France, Germany, Italy, Japan and Russia. Japan has also invited Australia, Brazil, China, India, Indonesia, Mexico, South Korea and South Africa to a parallel summit on climate change on July 9.

The G8 summit marks the departure of Bush, whose presidential term ends this year. And it marks the first appearance by Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, who took over from his mentor Vladimir Putin in May.

Old Post Jul-03-2008 01:14  Canada
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DigiNut
You kids get off my lawn!



Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto, Self-proclaimed Centre of the Universe

quote:
Originally posted by MarkT
The same 'If everyone isn't in, then there's no point' position of the Harper gov't. Wow...what leadership!

Lame excuse. Why can't Harper just come out and say he doesn't support it because it's a pack of horse shit?

Politicians...


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Old Post Jul-03-2008 01:38  Canada
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TranceAddict Forums > Local Scene Info / Discussion / EDM Event Listings > Canada > Canada - Toronto & Southern Ont. > Liberal Stephane Dions Carbon Tax
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