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Originally posted by Clovis What other soldiers have popped up out of the blue with fake credentials to critisize the war? When he replied he said "soldiers" implying more than one.

Scott Thomas Beauchamp

The New Republic, who first shared this jackball's fake line of bullshit had to eventually retract and apologize, after he was caught lying just like McBeth.

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In retrospect, we never should have put Beauchamp in this situation. He was a young soldier in a war zone, an untried writer without journalistic training. We published his accounts of sensitive events while granting him the shield of anonymity–which, in the wrong hands, can become license to exaggerate, if not fabricate.

Here's an instant-message exchange with Beauchamp on page 8 of the retraction report about the non-existent disfigured civilian female contractor (referred to as "the Crypt Keeper") whom Beauchamp claimed he had taunted while on the battlefront in Iraq, supposedly a sign of how war dehumanized him and his fellow soldiers. When challenged Beauchamp then claimed that it happened in Kuwait. Before he had gone to war. Here’s the moment of emblematic moment of discovery:

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TNR: so where did you see the crypt keeper? Beauchamp: are you there? TNR: yes Beauchamp: the last thing i got was “where did you see the crypt keeper” TNR: yes Beauchamp: the dfac on falcon or chow hall, as it IS commonly called TNR: what about kuwait? Beauchamp: brb [be right back] Nine minutes of silence TNR: you there? Ten minutes of silence Beauchamp: ok just did a sworn statement TNR: about? Beauchamp: saying that i wrote the articles TNR: ok Beauchamp: theyre taking away mylaptop TNR: fuck is this it for communication? Beauchamp: yeah and im fucked TNR: they said that? Beauchamp: because you’re right the Crypt Keeper WAS in Kuwait FUCK FUCK FUCK. this is bad isnt it TNR: yes

Surprised you never heard of this story man! Maybe if you listened to Rush....

j/k man... I'm done politicking for tonight. As always, I enjoyed the battle

SO now we're up to 2. Out of 140,000 troops in Iraq.

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

and if i pulled out 3, you'd want 4. My point was proven. It's never enough to get you to agree with me, is it Clovis?

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Originally posted by The17sss and if i pulled out 3, you'd want 4. My point was proven. It's never enough to get you to agree with me, is it Clovis?

The point is, "phony" soldiers dissenting on Iraq are practically a non-issue. Its typical of Rush to push something like that to distract from the real issue, that we sent people to die for absolutely no reason and some of them are realizing that.

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

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Originally posted by Clovis The point is, "phony" soldiers dissenting on Iraq are practically a non-issue. Its typical of Rush to push something like that to distract from the real issue, that we sent people to die for absolutely no reason and some of them are realizing that.

LOL. You challenged me about what Rush was saying with the phony soldiers comment when I explained it was taken out of context, and cleared it up by giving the real account of Jesse McBeth. I even gave you the actual transcripted words from the real source, not a left wing publication who was paraphrasing. That wasn't enough, so you asked for another example, since he used "soldierS" pluraly, I gave you Scott Beauchamp. Now you're drifting off into things outside of this point and saying, "phony soldiers dissenting on Iraq are practically a non-issue.... and it's typical of Rush to distract...etc," and getting into a different subjct about what you think the "real issue" in Iraq is. How is it a political non issue when a bullshit story like that has 41 Democratic members of the senate taking time on the senate floor denouncing a talk radio host, without even taking the time to find out the facts of the story?

God I hate that anti-war rhetoric of "the real issue is that we sent people to die for absolutely nothing." You'd be surprised how many people who are there now, and have actually been there, feel completely opposite. But I guess they are just fools because they don't look through the same political lens as you. There are always going to be dissenters... but guess what... they signed up for it, they weren't drafted. It doesn't make soldiers any less cerebral because they don't realize what you and the dissenters "realize". Unbelievable. It pains you to have to concede even a little bit that you may have been misinformed about the phony soldier story, as you understood it. This kind of reinforces something I mentioned a couple days ago about how the liberal left cannot compromise, unless that compromise entails anyone to the right of them making the compromising concessions and moving in their direction.

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Originally posted by Clovis that we sent people to die for absolutely no reason and some of them are realizing that.

nope. we sent people to die for this. >LINK< the only self determining Arab government in the Middle East. long live Iraq.

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Originally posted by Q5echo nope. we sent people to die for this. >LINK< the only self determining Arab government in the Middle East. long live Iraq.

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Life is awfully important so if you've given it away you'd ought to think with all your mind in the last moments of your life about the thing you traded it for. So did all those kids die thinking of democracy and freedom and liberty and honor and the safety of the home and the stars and stripes forever? You're goddamn right they didn't. They died crying in their minds like little babies. They forgot the thing they were fighting for the things they were dying for. They thought about things a man can understand. They died yearning for the face of a friend. They died whimpering for the voice of a mother a father a wife a child They died with their hearts sick for one more look at the place where they were born please god just one more look. They died moaning and sighing for life. They knew what was important They knew that life was everything and they died with screams and sobs. They died with only one thought in their minds and that was I want to live I want to live I want to live.

Iraq is worth over 4,000 soldiers lives? What country shall we bring democracy to next? How many lives will it be worth?

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God I hate that anti-war rhetoric of "the real issue is that we sent people to die for absolutely nothing." You'd be surprised how many people who are there now, and have actually been there, feel completely opposite.

No, I'm not surprised, there are many of them, I know a few personally. But thats giving it credibility after the fact. Sure, it is noble, helping the country we destroyed attempt to get back on its feet, "democracy" and all. Making progress against internal terrorists. War should always be used as a last resort...that is usually a well agreed on principle. So...was it? And if it was, are you prepared to die for the cause? Be honest. Think about being dead.

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

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Originally posted by Clovis Iraq is worth over 4,000 soldiers lives? What country shall we bring democracy to next? How many lives will it be worth?

what's democracy worth? are you really asking that question?

what's it worth is just like most things, whatever you're willing to pay for it.

no greater Democracies have ever been born than from a barrel of a gun. remember, this isn't the first time we've done this.

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Life is awfully important so if you've given it away you'd ought to think with all your mind in the last moments of your life about the thing you traded it for. So did all those kids die thinking of democracy and freedom and liberty and honor and the safety of the home and the stars and stripes forever? You're goddamn right they didn't. They died crying in their minds like little babies. They forgot the thing they were fighting for the things they were dying for. They thought about things a man can understand. They died yearning for the face of a friend. They died whimpering for the voice of a mother a father a wife a child They died with their hearts sick for one more look at the place where they were born please god just one more look. They died moaning and sighing for life. They knew what was important They knew that life was everything and they died with screams and sobs. They died with only one thought in their minds and that was I want to live I want to live I want to live.

touching appeal to sympathy, and is probably absolutely true of any soldier who has fought and died at any time for anything for any country or ideal, but ask yourself this. if the way of your life, or more importantly, the way of your children's life isn't worth dying for then what the hell is?

Last edited by Q5echo on Jul-20-2008 at 03:13

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Originally posted by Clovis Iraq is worth over 4,000 soldiers lives? What country shall we bring democracy to next? How many lives will it be worth? No, I'm not surprised, there are many of them, I know a few personally. But thats giving it credibility after the fact. Sure, it is noble, helping the country we destroyed attempt to get back on its feet, "democracy" and all. Making progress against internal terrorists. War should always be used as a last resort...that is usually a well agreed on principle. So...was it? And if it was, are you prepared to die for the cause? Be honest. Think about being dead.

whoever made that quote you posted is projecting his feelings onto the soldiers who die. If he was on the battlefield, that's how he would handle it... like a sniveling litte bitch, crying for mommy. But he wouldn't be on the battlefield. I'm sure death comes pretty instantaneous for most, without time for them to regress to the infantile state this hack suggests they do. When it isn't instantaneous, I would bet more of them die like a man.

Was Iraq worth 4000 deaths? I guess I can't answer that until enough time passes to see how it all plays out. Hindsight you know? It's hard for me to wrap my mind around it at this point because we've been in Iraq longer than we fought WW2 where we lost over 400,000 soldiers, over 58,000 (reported) in Vietnam (not worth it), between 600-700K in the Civil War (definitely worth it to keep the union together and help end slavery............ so, 4000 deaths seems like not so much. I don't mean to minimize the importance of the lives given, but in time if Iraq proves to be a sustainable democracy in that fucked up region, and are our allies, I would say it was worth it, yeah.

Am I prepared to die for that cause over there? No... but that's a choice I'm entitled to, thanks to those who do volunteer for the military. If we were attacked by a foreign army on our soil though, I'd be the first one at the army recruitment center and fully prepared to die for a cause like that.

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Originally posted by Q5echo nope. we sent people to die for this. >LINK< the only self determining Arab government in the Middle East. long live Iraq. what's democracy worth? are you really asking that question? what's it worth is just like most things, whatever you're willing to pay for it. no greater Democracies have ever been born than from a barrel of a gun. remember, this isn't the first time we've done this.

Iraq's self-determination is not ours to fight for. Let's also not forget the false pretenses given to the American people to support the war. Or the huge cost of the entire venture (which we'll be paying for decades to come). Or the fact our actions made Iran stronger. Or the fact that MILLIONS of Iraqi's are refugees. And the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi dead wounded. Iraqi's also did not ask us to "liberate" them. They had nothing to do with 9/11 or Osama bin Laden. Spreading democracy by the barrel of a gun is nothing lower than state-sponsored terrorism.

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Originally posted by Krypton Iraq's self-determination is not ours to fight for.

all self-determination is ours to fight for. being the world's superpower it will continue to be the debt we pay.

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Or the fact our actions made Iran stronger.

we've already gone over the other crap ad-nauseum, but how is Iran "stronger"? every country in the world is beginning to see Iran for what they truly are and are acting accordingly.

if i corner a ferrel cat in my garage of course it's going to appear stronger but it's still just a ferrel cat.

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Spreading democracy by the barrel of a gun is nothing lower than state-sponsored terrorism.

your problem (aside from your grammar) is you lack the intellectual courage to make simple distinctions.

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Originally posted by Q5echo all self-determination is ours to fight for. being the world's superpower it will continue to be the debt we pay.

No it's not. The UN Charter grants all state's the right of self-determination. Being the world's superpower is not an excuse to tell other nations how to run their country.

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we've already gone over the other crap ad-nauseum, but how is Iran "stronger"? every country in the world is beginning to see Iran for what they truly are and are acting accordingly.

Iran is stronger because it doesn't have its regional arch enemy to worry about anymore. Now we have to be that arch enemy. And they know we are tied down in a two front war.

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your problem (aside from your grammar) is you lack the intellectual courage to make simple distinctions.

LOL, all you have is a criticism of my grammar and an attack on my "intellectual courage"? Is it because I actually respect the sovereignty of other nations?

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