I'm not familiar with the politics here, so I'm curious... are Canadian governments licking US govt's balls? (and sending people to the middle east also)

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Not quite so simple. What I save in income tax and don't pay back due to my efforts to be more energy efficient will be made up by those who are less so. What this plan really does is reward people who have made the investments to reduce their reliance on fosile fules and those who chose to purchase local goods and services. Some will save money (even after one includes the increased cost for consumer goods) whereas others will pay more. In the end this allows the individual to have additional control over their tax burden... if you want to save money then become more energy efficient and make smarter choices when purchasing consumer goods, if you prefer to maintain the same lifestyle you have now then pay for it... simple as that.

Canadians pay enough of taxes already, there are better and many more ways of getting your taxes back legally, vs this carbon tax, like Jayx1, says everything in price will increase, you'll end up spending more your every days needs. If I'm a business owner that provide a service and now my expenses increase, wouldn't it make sense for me to increase that cost of the service I provide? Btw, not everyone drives for pleasure, it's a means for people to get to work, and many families are financially struggling already, more taxes is not going to help them in any way.

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Originally posted by djeso more taxes is not going to help them in any way.

Neither is a world full of carbon.

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Originally posted by djeso Canadians pay enough of taxes already, there are better and many more ways of getting your taxes back legally, vs this carbon tax, like Jayx1, says everything in price will increase, you'll end up spending more your every days needs. If I'm a business owner that provide a service and now my expenses increase, wouldn't it make sense for me to increase that cost of the service I provide? Btw, not everyone drives for pleasure, it's a means for people to get to work, and many families are financially struggling already, more taxes is not going to help them in any way.

other taxes will be lowered to offset the costs of the carbon tax....and yes you will probably see an increase in some products but the increase will be minor. The tax is basically being used as a way to get industries and people to change the way they do things.

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Last edited by Moral Hazard on Apr-26-2011 at 07:48

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Originally posted by djmanu The only party with my opinions is the libertarian party: http://www.libertarian.ca

Absolutely wonderful..... IN THEORY. Unfortunately, most people are greedy fucks and won't do anything to assist those less fortunate in a climate such as this. Reminds me of a more modern and thought through version of communism - again, great in theory but most humans are too greedy to have a self-sustaining society.

Seems to me that liberarian views would recreate a 'class' society where the rich are really rich and the poor are full of scurvy and bath once a month a la victorian times....

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Originally posted by StereoPrincess So to review, I am for more kids and I am for a carbon tax.

Wait you want people to pump out more kids and you want to try save the environment? Not be a ass but isnt that also hypocritical?

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Originally posted by djmanu The only party with my opinions is the libertarian party: http://www.libertarian.ca

lol, socialist!

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Originally posted by ChemEnhanced other taxes will be lowered to offset the costs of the carbon tax....and yes you will probably see an increase in some products but the increase will be minor. The tax is basically being used as a way to get industries and people to change the way they do things.

But retrofitting and retooling is immensely expensive. All for a theory that is unproven.

If you are using a diesel engine, what are you supposed to switch to? You cannot just magically upgrade all engines to burn more cleanly, and use less fuel. Science and progress just does not work like that. You will be paying more for something, even though you have no alternative to upgrade.

What about for people heating their homes? Again, you can only upgrade your home eating equipment so far. You should not be expected to heat your home less, just because it helps stop some CO2 from entering the atmosphere.

Landlords who offer all included (heating, electricity) rent will be hit hard. Their municipal government will only allow them to raise their rent a small percentage, but their energy costs will go up by much more. Will there be a federal mandate allowing them to increase their prices in line with the increase of energy costs due to the tax?

There are just too many areas the tax will cause havoc, that the liberals have not thought of. Their numbers are not clear, or accurate, and I don't believe in the science.

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Originally posted by Import Wait you want people to pump out more kids and you want to try save the environment? Not be a ass but isnt that also hypocritical?

Good point. Having more kids in this part of the world is really hard on the environment.

i'm going to be argumentative here, just because i feel like doing so and its so easy:

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Originally posted by Jayx1 Our bloated health care system. There needs to be more of a public/private partnership and if people with money want to go to the front of the line they can pay more and subsidize everyone else while also freeing up space. Furthermore pricing and salaries can still be regulated by government in order to ensure a balanced system.

You do realize that the 3p hospital experiment we've run here in ontario has actually been more costly, less efficacious in health terms, and was a deal brokered in such corporate secrecy that it required a court order to open the details to the public?
source: http://www.thebramptonnews.com/arti...ital/Page1.html

And if there's one profession where we have actually had documented data supporting the brain drain theory, it is in the field of health care and medicine. Nurses get massive signing bonuses, accomodations and food paid for, vastly higher salaries, and more in the U.S., as it is. And that's just of the nursing profession, never mind the doctors and more critically, specialiasts. If by regulating salaries
you mean decreasing them, this will exasperate the problem immensely.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 Our bloated health care system. There needs to be more of a public/private partnership and if people with money want to go to the front of the line they can pay more and subsidize everyone else while also freeing up space. Furthermore pricing and salaries can still be regulated by government in order to ensure a balanced system. National daycare as proposed by liberals and NDP. No thanks. If you cant afford to have kids, dont have them. Its bad enough that bachalors and seniors have to pay education taxes as it is but at least that goes toward a better educated population as opposed to supporting someone's double income lifestyle. Gun registries, complicated income and corperate taxes, CRTC, and the list goes on. These are the things that make our country innefficient and helps send jobs overseas. The green shift is one more burden we do not need. As i said, lets fix the environment with innovative, money making ideas instead of just another new tax.

I definitely agree about the gun registry bullshit, as its entirely a political white elephant with zero documented effectiveness except in the area of demonstrating idiocy.

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Originally posted by Jayx1 The green shift is one more burden we do not need. As i said, lets fix the environment with innovative, money making ideas instead of just another new tax.

Right, just because Canada's economy hasn't been entirely sunk due entirely to the fact that our finite resources are in good supply does not mean we're not going to burn ourselves into an environment incapable of recovery. Here's a better thought, straight out of the Alberta PC playbook - vigorously enforce the carbon tax but also reward R&D that promotes alternative energy resources. Even the Alberta oil sands barons are behind this one.

b/c ontario is full of immigrants who feel obligated to vote liberal and will 'til the day they die.

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Originally posted by StereoPrincess Jay is against the carbon tax but said the kids thing, it's hypocritical.

Uhh no... you see there's a small difference, that being that the cost of child care is based on market forces, whereas the cost of a carbon tax is imposed artificially and arbitrarily. Really not the same thing at all.

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Originally posted by ChemEnhanced The tax is basically being used as a way to get industries and people to change the way they do things.

I'm sure that is indeed how it's intended. I also can't recall any examples from history where taxation has actually been effective as a means of social control.

The best way to promote energy conservation is to make people accountable to the market for what they use: remove the price caps on hydro and put in residential smart sub-meters. The market wants to do this anyway because energy costs money - governments only need to remove the barriers (fortunately, Ontario has made it slightly easier).

These are provincial issues, not federal, but that's a matter of constitutional delegation. It's not an excuse for the feds to impose sub-optimal or unworkable solutions simply because the provinces aren't pulling their weight.

I work in this industry and I am well-versed in the issues at hand and specifically in the behaviour of energy consumers. That does not automatically make me an expert on energy policy, but I do feel that I speak with some authority when I say that a carbon tax will accomplish next to nothing in terms of energy savings. People will chalk it up to the "cost of living" in Canada. Many, however, will cut their consumption (typically by about 40%) if you give them the ability to monitor their costs directly and see the financial impact of consumption/conservation, and this is something that the market is already moving toward without government interference.

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