IMO there should be no bail-out. This whole mess was caused by financial institutions begging for less government intervention so they could more fully fuel their greed. I think it's funny as hell that this mess was created by people who wanted no government intervention and are begging for government intervention to save their asses. I say let the whole thing go down; it's only after something collapses that it can be rebuilt. Of course an economic meltdown is going to hurt, but better to do it now and get it over with.

"Let all that is falling also be pushed." - Nietzsche


Could this be Marx's capitalist crisis?

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard Could this be Marx's capitalist crisis?

Capitalism and deregulation are actually two separate issues, since it's possible to have an unregulated system without capitalism (anarcho-syndicalism) and a highly regulated system with capitalism (fascism). The current problems are a result of low regulation, not of capitalism.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Capitalism and deregulation are actually two separate issues, since it's possible to have an unregulated system without capitalism (anarcho-syndicalism) and a highly regulated system with capitalism (fascism). The current problems are a result of low regulation, not of capitalism.

While that's true I was specifically referring to Marx's prediction that capitalism, through it's rapacious nature, would suffer a tremendous crisis resulting in a drastic redistribution of wealth which would inevitably lead to communism. Marx did not bother to comment on the mechanism for this crisis. I agree with you in that capitalism and deregulation are separate issues; however, with deregulation creating a crisis in credit and credit being the cornerstone upon which western capitalism is built the credit crisis threatens capitalism as a whole.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

Well, I'm not sure how communism would be a "solution" to the credit crisis, since the credit crisis involves massively overvalued assets and one of the problems of communism in practice has always been how to value assets in the absence of market mechanisms; this is why communist countries often see massive shortages and distribution problems.

Of course, communism isn't supposed to have any problems in valuing assets without market mechanisms, since Marx distinguished between market value of products and their "true" value as determined by the use of labor power -- so you don't need markets to price things, you just calculate value based on how long a product takes to make. Trouble is, this kind of "value" has no relationship to how much people actually want something (i.e. "market value"), which is why Marx's theory of value sucks and ultimately leads to repression when the vanguard in the so-called "dictatorship of the proletariat" has to beat the clueless "masses" into accepting the supposed "right" valuation of goods and labor.

The idea of the vanguard actually comes from Lenin, btw, who was prescient in recognizing that the majority of people would be too mired in their "false consciousness" to accept communism on a theoretical or ideological level.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Well, I'm not sure how communism would be a "solution" to the credit crisis, since the credit crisis involves massively overvalued assets and one of the problems of communism in practice has always been how to value assets in the absence of market mechanisms; this is why communist countries often see massive shortages and distribution problems.

hmm... I'm not sure I agree that you can pin scarcities in past "communist" states as being a result of the absence of market forces to ascribe value to assets. First, there has never been a state that is actually communist as Marx describes communism... all states that have tried ended up getting bogged down in that pesky "transitionary" authoritarian stage between capitalism and communism (well, between feudalism and communism in most cases). Second, in all states styled as communist assets could be valued based on the value ascribed to similar assets in neighboring states or based on what trading states would pay to acquire said assets, so the idea that assets are/were without value in "communist" states is simply incorrect. The scarcity of goods in most of the states styled as communist really has more to do with industrial capacity and the distribution of the state's resources toward other activities (i.e. military, policing, keeping high ranking members of the party in luxury fit for kings, etc).

How would communism solve the credit crisis... I can't say that I can give a credible answer to that question. Please keep in mind, I was not postulating that this was the crisis Marx spoke of - just musing that it could be. If I had to give an answer to your question I would suggest that a massive redistribution of wealth such that the state controlled all the means of production and the citizenry had complete control of the state would eliminate private ownership, which in turn would eliminate credit and debt (you cannot owe anything if everyone shares everything). That said, I'm really just thinking out loud here.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles The idea of the vanguard actually comes from Lenin, btw, who was prescient in recognizing that the majority of people would be too mired in their "false consciousness" to accept communism on a theoretical or ideological level.

Too bad Lenin didn't actually understand Marx's theories. If he had he would have realized that the real problem was that history had not arrived at the point where communism was possible... especially in Russia.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

Can anyone let me know how the stimulus checks of may/08 up until now turned out for our economy as of now?

Also I read this 700 billion dollar bailout invloves how will they satusfy or hurt the nice salaries of people at the top of the food chain as usually. Hmmm Cut spending and raise taxes to fix the deficit. Who wins??

___________________
ATB -Let u go
Iio - Rapture(riva edit)
Dj Encore - I see right through you
Lasgo - something

The best vocal tunes on LI RIP(2001-2002)

quote:

Originally posted by digitalbreach US started sending weapons to Poland for "defense system" while in the media light we wanted to end conflict through peace talks.

Stupid fucking Poland

quote:

Originally posted by Moral Hazard First, there has never been a state that is actually communist as Marx describes communism... all states that have tried ended up getting bogged down in that pesky "transitionary" authoritarian stage between capitalism and communism (well, between feudalism and communism in most cases).

I know, right? Funnily enough, the people who lead the dictatorship of the proletariat end up caring about the "dictatorship" part more than the "proletariat" part, since it benefits them the most.

quote:

Second, in all states styled as communist assets could be valued based on the value ascribed to similar assets in neighboring states or based on what trading states would pay to acquire said assets, so the idea that assets are/were without value in "communist" states is simply incorrect.

It's not that they're "without value," or that there aren't ways to ascribe value to them (like looking to other countries, most likely capitalist ones), it's just that it's incredibly inefficient to obtain information about optimal production of goods (i.e. Pareto optimality) in the absence of decentralized market mechanisms. This is why misallocation of resources occurs.

quote:

If I had to give an answer to your question I would suggest that a massive redistribution of wealth such that the state controlled all the means of production and the citizenry had complete control of the state would eliminate private ownership, which in turn would eliminate credit and debt (you cannot owe anything if everyone shares everything).

Well, yeah, I guess if you simply declare that no one any longer owns anything, then the idea of "bad assets" and "bad credit" becomes meaningless.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Well, yeah, I guess if you simply declare that no one any longer owns anything, then the idea of "bad assets" and "bad credit" becomes meaningless.

If the communist utopia were achievable the above is exactly the condition that would exist.

Note; I do not believe communism is actually possible at present... in the mean time I favor fascism.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down