quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN fucking hell. its the same stuff, over and over. to quote maddox 'its like being bukkaked with stupid'.

Ah, yes, you're the sort of bloke who holds a psychopath narcissist in high regard. He's jokes, but no one to quote in a debate.

quote:

no, not necessarily. but it would help you understand how it worked and you wouldn't be posting lies and distortions as you do below. you're understanding is just way WAY off base because you dont balance your sources enough. ..and you don't punctuate your sentences enough. I think what you fail to see is that I understand the Fed. To make sure that I was aware of how it is perceived by sheepish minds are yourself, I read all of Occ's posts in the link you provided; well described and thorough. I also took a second look into the ownership of the Fed (OWNERSHIP. Read: private.) At the very top, the tippy-top, of the iceberg is N.M. Rothschild, BOE. That's significant, whether you'll allow yourself to accept this or not. The Fed is a shotgun wedding between the private and public sector at best. [quote] its not a scam.

Sure it is. And if not by nature of the beast, then they are readily in on financial scams. Example: Barak Obama sued Citibank in 1994 under the CRA (Community Reinvestment Act) basically assuring loans to people that could not afford them. Citibank is one of the top 3 shareholders of the Fed, along with BoA and JP Morgan & Chase. Now.. let's look at Barak's top campaign supporters!

Goldman Sachs $748,880
Goldman Sachs is a bank holding company for the Fed. You might remember Goldman Sachs from the 1995 Economic Crisis, when former Co-Chairman Robert Rubin became Treasury Secretary during the Clinton Administration. Subsequently passing a $20B bailout for Mexico, protecting Citicorp's profits, among other corporations.

University of California $625,911
Janet L. Yellen was professor emerita at UoC before becoming president and CEO of the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco. She is a voting member of the Federal Open Market Committee, the group led by Federal Reserve Board Chairman Ben Bernanke that sets the course of monetary policy for the nation.

JPMorgan Chase & Co $493,469
No way! What are all these Fed companies doing on his supporter list?

Harvard University $473,669
Bob Bernanke completed his undergrad summa cum laude at Harvard. Granted, this is a stretch.. albeit just one more connection to the Fed in the top 5 campaign contributors.

Citigroup Inc $467,849

Lo and behold. :P The Fed was pretty kind in bending the Arm's Length rule in 2007.

And now America finds itself in a severe economic crisis, with one of the instigators at the helm? Incredible timing.

quote:

even if that is true, so what?

See above. The Bank of England is at the top of the Fed? Or at least has a hell of a lot to say about what's happening with the direction of the monetary policy.
__edit__
N.M. Rothschild, Bank of England, to be precise. There are a couple of banks touting the Rothschild legacy. It was N.M. Rothschild that said "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes her laws." You never got back to me on that one, when I asked you earlier. Maybe you weren't curious.

quote:

if you want to learn how the fed actually works, here's a thread with all the basic info so, you can either keep making fallacious statements or try and learn something. its your choice.

Granted, I may not have the full, enveloping understanding of the Fed that you boast, but I am not one to miss an obvious connection, or be lied to blatantly and swallow it whole. In past, I have perhaps mislead myself or given second thought to certain points of information, but be assured that I have looked deeper into the subjects that have caused me intellectual grief. I think it's you that needs to take a deeper look into the issues at hand. It does not take a staggering intellect to see that the money-makers in the world are guiding the 'powers that be' or 'that will be'.

quote:

10 characteristics of conspiracy theorists A useful guide by Donna Ferentes 9. Using previous conspiracies as evidence to support their claims. This argument invokes scandals like the Birmingham Six, the Bologna station bombings, the Zinoviev letter and so on in order to try and demonstrate that their conspiracy theory should be accorded some weight (because it's “happened before”.) They do not pause to reflect that the conspiracies they are touting are almost always far more unlikely and complicated than the real-life conspiracies with which they make comparison, or that the fact that something might potentially happen does not, in and of itself, make it anything other than extremely unlikely.

You fool, the Gulf of Tonkin Lie has been disclosed. Same goes for Northwoods. Fact, not speculation or fleeting ideas of Government terror whoring.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Incident

It is not simply that there is a different story as to what happened; it is that no attack happened that night. [...] In truth, Hanoi's navy was engaged in nothing that night but the salvage of two of the boats damaged on 2 August.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods.

Last edited by {b.s.e.} on Oct-06-2008 at 02:09

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Of course it's a product from that perspective, but it's not a product in the conventional sense at all. It's not like a perishable item like food for example. Or a product like your furniture, car, cds, ipod etc. It bears no resemblance to any other goods that you'd find in a market place or for barter.

that seems like a restrictive and inaccurate definition of product. Is electricity a product? how about internet connection or cable? You can't exactly barter for internet service, and it doesn't really resemble any other product offered in any market.

BSE, you keep moving the goalposts. you made 3 very serious errors in your post from the COR and i really dont see the point in continuing the discussion until you retract those fallacious claims.

quote:

Originally posted by {b.s.e.} See above. The Bank of England is at the top of the Fed? Or at least has a hell of a lot to say about what's happening with the direction of the monetary policy.

sorry, that's wrong. here is a list of the 12 banks that make up the fed.

Boston
New York
Philadelphia
Cleveland
Richmond
Atlanta
Chicago
St. Louis
Minneapolis
Kansas City
Dallas
San Francisco

im unclear as to the specific laws that govern it, but my understandind is that foreign banks are not allowed to be part of the fed.

quote:

Originally posted by {b.s.e.} Granted, I may not have the full, enveloping understanding of the Fed that you boast,

i do not, for a second, boast that i have this full, enveloping understanding. my understanding is actually very basic, but that's my whole point. even a basic understanding is enough to know that the conspiracy arguments are wrong in how they present their "facts".

quote:

Originally posted by {b.s.e.} It does not take a staggering intellect to see that the money-makers in the world are guiding the 'powers that be' or 'that will be'.

so, rail against capitalism. dont harp on the federal reserve, because it is the federal reserve's role to shield the citizens from the anarchies of capitalist economy. i can only suggest that you start with the 3 errors identified in your COR post and then go from there. the fed doesn't do what you think it does, that's not my opinion that's just fact. read occrider's posts in THIS THREAD which should answer some of your concerns.

that's all i have to say really. there's only so many times you can have the exact same argument before it gets really boring.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z LOL, debt is not a "product." By centralized institutions, I'm referring to not the Fed specifically, but all central banks. You do know what the word centralized means right ?

Debt is a product. Please dude, I major in financial analysis, I study this crap. Debt is sold to you for the price of the interest. It's a very simple concept...

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Another thing, I also DO NOT want it, anywhere fucking near me (and no one else should have to bother with it either) but the system we live under makes it virtually unavoidable pragmatically. And no, it's not fair. Making money out of thin air is not wealth anybody earned. That's not work, that taking advantage of your inherited wealth; extorting the general population who would never need to take any loans if it weren't for the economic system we have, interest and debt being the specific. Class wars, those who have an abundance of capital, generally those with inherited wealth, are the only beneficiaries. It doesn't take a genius or a degree, or reading Marx, or anything like that to figure out something that basic.

For your information, they aren't "creating money out of thing air". The Federal Reserve may do that, but that is completely within their power to do so as a means to maintain price stability. Commercial banks are required to maintain a reserve of 10% of their deposits as reserve cash. Which means there is a limit to how much a bank can loan out; and that is based on the amount of deposits the bank gets. Please, don't talk to me about "it doesn't take a genius", this or that. The system really isn't out to get you...

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN BSE, you keep moving the goalposts. you made 3 very serious errors in your post from the COR and i really dont see the point in continuing the discussion until you retract those fallacious claims. sorry, that's wrong. here is a list of the 12 banks that make up the fed. Boston New York Philadelphia Cleveland Richmond Atlanta Chicago St. Louis Minneapolis Kansas City Dallas San Francisco

Could you source that please?

quote:

that's all i have to say really. there's only so many times you can have the exact same argument before it gets really boring.

Of course, and you can only skip over so much that I have said before I lose interest in you totally. Do you concede the Gulf of Tonkin was a lie? Lol, shove that list by Donna up your down under.

This sums the whole argument up, quite easily.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...23003047AAqq8xL

Taking into account, it's Y!A, you can see both sides represented in the same manner it has taken 6 pages of bullshit to accomplish.

If you think that the Rothschild family would so blatantly put their name on America's monetary policy, you're dafter than I thought. And if you think that a Bill written by the richest ******s in the world and then passed through congress as legit is anything but fucked up you might as well stand in traffic. Figuratively of course, I don't actually wish you anything but indifference.


JP Morgan, agent of Rothschild in the early 1900s, was one of the -shall we say (He owned the mansion the meeting was held at)- conspirators of Jekyll Island. Morgon & Co just bought up Bear Stearns.. how convenient. The attendees at the meeting had a few common goals:

a) stop growing influence of rival banks and put control into the hands of those at the Jekyll Island meeting

b) pool the reserves of the nation's banks into one large reserve so that all banks would follow the same loan to deposit rations (the 10% fractional banking reserve)

c) shift losses from the owners onto the taxpayers - again, sound familiar?

d) convince Congress and the American people that it was all designed to protect the public

Is it coincidence that in 95 years Morgan has, through (Fed and FDIC brokered) acquisition only, become the largest bank in the US?

People have been well aware of the menace for a long time, and it's only through exertion of control and money that they continue to get away with it.

So yeah, feel free to not respond. Seriously. Bother someone else.

The real menance of our Republic is the invisible government which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy legs over our cities, states and nation. At the head is a small group of banking houses... This little coterie...run our government for their own selfish ends. It operates under cover of a self-created screen...seizes...our executive officers...legislative bodies...schools...
courts...newspapers and every agency created for the public protection.”
N.Y. Mayor 1917-1925, John Hylan

quote:

Originally posted by jerZ07002 that seems like a restrictive and inaccurate definition of product. Is electricity a product? how about internet connection or cable? You can't exactly barter for internet service, and it doesn't really resemble any other product offered in any market.

Alright, I'm assuming you're going by this definition of a product or something similar:

quote:

In marketing, a product is anything that can be offered to a market that might satisfy a want or need.[1] In retailing, products are called merchandise. In manufacturing, products are purchased as raw materials and sold as finished goods. Commodities are usually raw materials such as metals and agricultural products, but a commodity can also be anything widely available in the open market.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_(business)

By that definition, a vagina and women are products as they can be offered on to a market [aka prostitution]. Nice value assumption there eh?

So I wouldn't call something that lacks inherent value a "product." In this case, I gave you an example of something that does have inherent value but I still would not call it a product, perhaps if I was a little fucked up in the head I would, but I choose to avoid repulsive values and ideas.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Debt is a product. Please dude, I major in financial analysis, I study this crap. Debt is sold to you for the price of the interest. It's a very simple concept...

I understand that, apparently you didn't understand my post.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z I understand that, apparently you didn't understand my post.

Oh, so you meant the opposite of the below quote...

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z LOL, debt is not a "product."

...is today Opposite Day again?

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quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Oh, so you meant the opposite of the below quote... ...is today Opposite Day again?

Do you not understand the concept of value assumptions?

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Do you not understand the concept of value assumptions?

Please fill me in on why I shouldn't have taken your "LOL, debt isn't a product" quote as literal...

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quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Please fill me in on why I shouldn't have taken your "LOL, debt isn't a product" quote as literal...

Wasn't it clear from my statement that I completely disagree with certain value assumptions ?

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller