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LatinLover
Bad Boy 4 Life



Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Medellin, Colombia/ Miami, FL

quote:
Originally posted by MisterOpus1
So IOW, the person's background, shortcomings in the past, and "character" that defines him by his past actions are nothing shy of non sequiturs?

Excellent point, Q. Thanks for the ultimate irony.


The problem here is that the far left wants to discredit this mans concerns with his background. You dont have to be a role model citizen to be concerned and ask valid questions to a presidential candidate. Heck, Joe is a saint compared to all the crooks in Capitol Hill. This man is an average American like you and me.


___________________
quote:
Originally posted by Krypton

College tuition should be free, so should healthcare.

Old Post Oct-19-2008 04:05  United States
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LatinLover
Bad Boy 4 Life



Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Medellin, Colombia/ Miami, FL

quote:
Originally posted by Magnetonium


I realized something really scary yesterday. At my co-op job, I have a co-worker who is pretty much like LatinLover. I only realized it after we somehow over lunch talked about Bush and then he dropped the bomb on us by voicing his support of the Bush administration (and McCain and the likes). And he is very open about it and loves Bush and thinks he is a great leader. The guy is a jerk, but he is a senior worker in charge of a specific section, hence we just ignore him.

Cant believe there's actually quite a few people out there that absolutely adore Bush Jr., despite of all the horrendous crap he's done




Its good to know that intelligent and common sense people walk within us in this world like your co-worker. you should be proud of that.


___________________
quote:
Originally posted by Krypton

College tuition should be free, so should healthcare.

Old Post Oct-19-2008 04:08  United States
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Lebezniatnikov
Stupidity Annoys Me



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: DC

quote:
Originally posted by LatinLover
The problem here is that the far left wants to discredit this mans concerns with his background. You dont have to be a role model citizen to be concerned and ask valid questions to a presidential candidate. Heck, Joe is a saint compared to all the crooks in Capitol Hill. This man is an average American like you and me.


Now that you've vouched for Joe, are you going to make that thread to honorably debate Opus or not?


___________________

Old Post Oct-19-2008 04:12  United Nations
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LatinLover
Bad Boy 4 Life



Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Medellin, Colombia/ Miami, FL

quote:
Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov
Now that you've vouched for Joe, are you going to make that thread to honorably debate Opus or not?


If I recall right I was to start a thread for the debate... due to priotities that I had to take care of procluded me from being on TA for quite some time. I thought that I was going to see a thread that Opus was going to start if I wasnt able to start it like he mentioned.

But hey the challenge still stands....


___________________
quote:
Originally posted by Krypton

College tuition should be free, so should healthcare.

Old Post Oct-19-2008 04:43  United States
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NeoPhono
Übermensch



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: In Orbit

quote:
Originally posted by LatinLover
The problem here is that the far left wants to discredit this mans concerns with his background. You dont have to be a role model citizen to be concerned and ask valid questions to a presidential candidate. Heck, Joe is a saint compared to all the crooks in Capitol Hill. This man is an average American like you and me.


The problem though is that this man's "concerns" are unfounded. He admittedly does not make enough currently to fall into the higher tax bracket and he is extremely unlikely to come even close to falling into the higher business tax bracket with a new plumbing company. McCain would like the "everyday man" to equate themselves with "Joe the Plumber," and think "hey, if that dude's worried about getting taxed under Obama, I should too!" McCain & Co. are now consistently giving examples of people saying that they will either be taxed more or suffer penalties under Obama's health care plan when in reality they won't. It's not even a matter of subjectivity; Obama has put the important numbers in place. It's simply the McCain campaign frightening people over taxes or expenses when those fears are completely unfounded.

Joe is an average American that won't have to worry about taxation increases, that's what's important.

Old Post Oct-19-2008 04:58  United States
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josh4
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Dec 2003
Location: New York City

FFS, this is so retarded. I'm beginning to wonder if McCain's whole plan is to actually have this be debated. While we're talking about JTP we're not talking about McCain. Every time their campaign brings him up I think this more plausible. Its nice to know McCain is willing to throw this guy under the bus then point at Obama in order to keep the heat off himself.

quote:
'Joe the Plumber' strikes back at media

1 hour ago

NEW YORK (AP) — "Joe the Plumber" is lashing out at the media for analyzing his personal life since he suddenly became a focal point of the presidential race last week.

Joe Wurzelbacher, a plumber from Holland, Ohio, told Mike Huckabee on his Fox News talk show Saturday that he is upset by the attention and has been unable to work with reporters crowded on his front lawn.

"The media's worried about whether I've paid my taxes, they're worried about any number of silly things that have nothing to do with America," Wurzelbacher told the former Republican presidential hopeful on his show, "Huckabee."

Wurzelbacher said he felt terrible after reading some of the criticism of himself posted online.

"I felt about that small," he said. "I mean I really did."

Republican presidential candidate John McCain has been portraying Wurzelbacher as emblematic of people with concerns about Obama's tax plans.

Wurzelbacher became famous after he met Obama and said the Democrat's tax proposal could keep him from buying the two-man plumbing company where he works. However, reports of Wurzelbacher's annual earnings suggest he would receive a tax cut rather than an increase under Obama's plan.

"You know, I am a plumber," Wurzelbacher said. "Just a plumber."

Wurzelbacher said he agreed to appear on the show after he received phone calls from friends serving in the military who voiced their support.

"You know, when you can't ask a question of your leaders anymore, that gets scary," he said.

On Sunday, McCain was to travel to Ohio, where he might appear with Wurzelbacher.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5...BjG8pwD93TAT0O0


These people know how it works. You can't cry foul then keep throwing fuel on the fire. If McCain was really serious about JTP being left alone he'd stop talking about him. If JTP was serious about it he'd stop showing up on Fox News and going to McCain rallies. This is really starting to stink.

Old Post Oct-19-2008 05:22  United States
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Renegade
____________/



Registered: May 2001
Location: Prague, Czech Republic

Looks like they're gonna keep on hammering this:

quote:
Sen. John McCain stepped up his rhetoric against his Democratic rival on taxes in his weekly radio address Saturday, comparing his plan to "socialist" programs.

The remarks were part of a theme McCain has used since the final presidential debate, but his most recent comments were the first time he used the word to describe Sen. Barack Obama.

In the radio address, McCain didn't directly call Obama a socialist, but he let the now-famous Joe "the Plumber" Wurzelbacher nearly do it for him.

"You see, [Obama] believes in redistributing wealth, not in policies that help us all make more of it. Joe, in his plainspoken way, said this sounded a lot like socialism," McCain said Saturday.


http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITIC...wrap/index.html

Liked Obama's response though:

quote:
"John McCain is so out of touch with the struggles you are facing that he must be the first politician in history to call a tax cut for working people 'welfare,' " Obama told a massive crowd under the famous St. Louis arch.


Only a Republican could describe a plan that seeks to reduce the tax burden for 95% of workers while increasing the tax-rates for the highest earners by a meagre three fucking percent as "socialism". I note that McCain isn't actually proposing the abolition of the progressive tax system, so the only conclusion I can draw is that the fine line separating good old-fashioned American capitalism from hardcore socialism lies somewhere between the tax rates of 33% and 36% on the top bracket of earners.

Old Post Oct-19-2008 14:15  Australia
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Shakka
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2003
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade
Only a Republican could describe a plan that seeks to reduce the tax burden for 95% of workers while increasing the tax-rates for the highest earners by a meagre three fucking percent as "socialism". I note that McCain isn't actually proposing the abolition of the progressive tax system, so the only conclusion I can draw is that the fine line separating good old-fashioned American capitalism from hardcore socialism lies somewhere between the tax rates of 33% and 36% on the top bracket of earners.


Much of the "socialism" bent (and I admit that I think the term is being overly used and being used a bit too loosely these days) is that a substantial percentage of those quoted in the "95% of workers" don't even pay taxes, yet they are receiving a "tax credit" which is just a pretty name for income redistribution and reeks of class warfare.

That aside, this frightens me.

quote:
A Liberal Supermajority
Get ready for 'change' we haven't seen since 1965, or 1933.

If the current polls hold, Barack Obama will win the White House on November 4 and Democrats will consolidate their Congressional majorities, probably with a filibuster-proof Senate or very close to it. Without the ability to filibuster, the Senate would become like the House, able to pass whatever the majority wants.
[Review & Outlook] AP

Though we doubt most Americans realize it, this would be one of the most profound political and ideological shifts in U.S. history. Liberals would dominate the entire government in a way they haven't since 1965, or 1933. In other words, the election would mark the restoration of the activist government that fell out of public favor in the 1970s. If the U.S. really is entering a period of unchecked left-wing ascendancy, Americans at least ought to understand what they will be getting, especially with the media cheering it all on.

The nearby table shows the major bills that passed the House this year or last before being stopped by the Senate minority. Keep in mind that the most important power of the filibuster is to shape legislation, not merely to block it. The threat of 41 committed Senators can cause the House to modify its desires even before legislation comes to a vote. Without that restraining power, all of the following have very good chances of becoming law in 2009 or 2010.
[Review & Outlook]

- Medicare for all. When HillaryCare cratered in 1994, the Democrats concluded they had overreached, so they carved up the old agenda into smaller incremental steps, such as Schip for children. A strongly Democratic Congress is now likely to lay the final flagstones on the path to government-run health insurance from cradle to grave.

Mr. Obama wants to build a public insurance program, modeled after Medicare and open to everyone of any income. According to the Lewin Group, the gold standard of health policy analysis, the Obama plan would shift between 32 million and 52 million from private coverage to the huge new entitlement. Like Medicare or the Canadian system, this would never be repealed.

The commitments would start slow, so as not to cause immediate alarm. But as U.S. health-care spending flowed into the default government options, taxes would have to rise or services would be rationed, or both. Single payer is the inevitable next step, as Mr. Obama has already said is his ultimate ideal.

- The business climate. "We have some harsh decisions to make," Speaker Nancy Pelosi warned recently, speaking about retribution for the financial panic. Look for a replay of the Pecora hearings of the 1930s, with Henry Waxman, John Conyers and Ed Markey sponsoring ritual hangings to further their agenda to control more of the private economy. The financial industry will get an overhaul in any case, but telecom, biotech and drug makers, among many others, can expect to be investigated and face new, more onerous rules. See the "Issues and Legislation" tab on Mr. Waxman's Web site for a not-so-brief target list.

The danger is that Democrats could cause the economic downturn to last longer than it otherwise will by enacting regulatory overkill like Sarbanes-Oxley. Something more punitive is likely as well, for instance a windfall profits tax on oil, and maybe other industries.

- Union supremacy. One program certain to be given right of way is "card check." Unions have been in decline for decades, now claiming only 7.4% of the private-sector work force, so Big Labor wants to trash the secret-ballot elections that have been in place since the 1930s. The "Employee Free Choice Act" would convert workplaces into union shops merely by gathering signatures from a majority of employees, which means organizers could strongarm those who opposed such a petition.

The bill also imposes a compulsory arbitration regime that results in an automatic two-year union "contract" after 130 days of failed negotiation. The point is to force businesses to recognize a union whether the workers support it or not. This would be the biggest pro-union shift in the balance of labor-management power since the Wagner Act of 1935.

- Taxes. Taxes will rise substantially, the only question being how high. Mr. Obama would raise the top income, dividend and capital-gains rates for "the rich," substantially increasing the cost of new investment in the U.S. More radically, he wants to lift or eliminate the cap on income subject to payroll taxes that fund Medicare and Social Security. This would convert what was meant to be a pension insurance program into an overt income redistribution program. It would also impose a probably unrepealable increase in marginal tax rates, and a permanent shift upward in the federal tax share of GDP.

- The green revolution. A tax-and-regulation scheme in the name of climate change is a top left-wing priority. Cap and trade would hand Congress trillions of dollars in new spending from the auction of carbon credits, which it would use to pick winners and losers in the energy business and across the economy. Huge chunks of GDP and millions of jobs would be at the mercy of Congress and a vast new global-warming bureaucracy. Without the GOP votes to help stage a filibuster, Senators from carbon-intensive states would have less ability to temper coastal liberals who answer to the green elites.

- Free speech and voting rights. A liberal supermajority would move quickly to impose procedural advantages that could cement Democratic rule for years to come. One early effort would be national, election-day voter registration. This is a long-time goal of Acorn and others on the "community organizer" left and would make it far easier to stack the voter rolls. The District of Columbia would also get votes in Congress -- Democratic, naturally.

Felons may also get the right to vote nationwide, while the Fairness Doctrine is likely to be reimposed either by Congress or the Obama FCC. A major goal of the supermajority left would be to shut down talk radio and other voices of political opposition.

- Special-interest potpourri. Look for the watering down of No Child Left Behind testing standards, as a favor to the National Education Association. The tort bar's ship would also come in, including limits on arbitration to settle disputes and watering down the 1995 law limiting strike suits. New causes of legal action would be sprinkled throughout most legislation. The anti-antiterror lobby would be rewarded with the end of Guantanamo and military commissions, which probably means trying terrorists in civilian courts. Google and MoveOn.org would get "net neutrality" rules, subjecting the Internet to intrusive regulation for the first time.



It's always possible that events -- such as a recession -- would temper some of these ambitions. Republicans also feared the worst in 1993 when Democrats ran the entire government, but it didn't turn out that way. On the other hand, Bob Dole then had 43 GOP Senators to support a filibuster, and the entire Democratic Party has since moved sharply to the left. Mr. Obama's agenda is far more liberal than Bill Clinton's was in 1992, and the Southern Democrats who killed Al Gore's BTU tax and modified liberal ambitions are long gone.

In both 1933 and 1965, liberal majorities imposed vast expansions of government that have never been repealed, and the current financial panic may give today's left another pretext to return to those heydays of welfare-state liberalism. Americans voting for "change" should know they may get far more than they ever imagined.

Old Post Oct-19-2008 18:04  United States
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LazFX
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2004
Location: 9th Circle

I just came to say ..





FUCK JOE!!

Old Post Oct-19-2008 20:23  United States
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Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade
Only a Republican could describe a plan that seeks to reduce the tax burden for 95% of workers while increasing the tax-rates for the highest earners by a meagre three fucking percent as "socialism". I note that McCain isn't actually proposing the abolition of the progressive tax system, so the only conclusion I can draw is that the fine line separating good old-fashioned American capitalism from hardcore socialism lies somewhere between the tax rates of 33% and 36% on the top bracket of earners.


in this country the top 1% pay 40% of Federal Personal Income Tax. down the scale the top 10% pay 70%. further down, the top 50% pay 97% of all Federal Personal Income Tax.

it's mathematically disingenuous to believe Obama "seeks to reduce the tax burden for 95% of workers" when a large majority of those 95% end up not paying any taxes. what he's going to do is give those people in his target range the money that those other people above his target range have paid in their taxes (what we Americans call wealth redistribution)...minus whatever increases in spending he's put on the table. makes perfect sense

Old Post Oct-19-2008 22:14  United States
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Q5echo
asymetrical scepticism



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Dallas

quote:
Originally posted by Shakka

That aside, this frightens me.


if thats what the people want, thats what the people will get.

Old Post Oct-19-2008 22:33  United States
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MisterOpus1
Grumpy Old Fart



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Kansas City

quote:
Originally posted by Q5echo
look we got another one pissed that Obama was questioned.


Obama has been more than capable to handle himself in this situation. The fact that Joe had to admit that he would likely get a tax cut, actually a BETTER tax cut under Obama's plan in realistic terms of the situation (and not the hypothetical that Shakka continues dreaming about) has done quite well to prove Obama's point and stance on the matter.

quote:
no Opus, in your haste to somehow nail me as a hypocrite you've failed to realize that Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher is not asking for our vote.

i don't know man, maybe if i were hiring a plumber "background and character" would be relevant or if we were hiring a plumber to be the POTUS it would be relevant...but we're not. he's the one thats actually doing the hiring therefore he deserves all due respect


Fair enough, and I'll concede your point. However I would again remind you as others have here that it was McCain that continually drags Joe into the spotlight. So despite there being these non sequiturs brought out (and despite the reality of his situation benefitting more under Obama's plan), you should neither be surprised by our media heads nor upset with anyone other than McCain for bringing him into the spotlight over and over, only to remind us that he's not exactly what he seems.

And as Lebez has pointed out, if we were to even assume the hypothetical that Joe would surprisingly be able to buy his owner's business (obtain a license first, I would assume), and surprisingly make more $ than his boss and reach above that $250,000 level (given the press coverage, that may soon be a reality perhaps), the fact that he would pay an EYE-POPPING, GIGANTUAN, UNBELIEVABLY ENORMOUS increase of $740 in extra taxes is, gosh, really astounding, ain't it?

Until that hypothetical happens, however, could we at least try to accept the reality of the situation involving this individual that has become McCain's argument flavor of the week, and that it isn't exactly what it was originally purported to be by the McCain campaign?


___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Old Post Oct-19-2008 22:36  United States
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