I knew someone that worked at TDSB as a network support specialist. He was good friends with the execs up there he was getting paid about $200K/year and told me that they state them as "contractors" so their income does not have to be disclosed. He would take breaks and walk down to ashbridges bay doing nothing all day. Took his sweet time to fix whatever he wanted and always made sure he finished work at 4pm. So just think how many contractors we also have which are not stated, its somewhat of a loophole to fool the public, just like bonuses.

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Originally posted by evil_cookie Anybody with an IQ just north of a bedroom slipper can sit on his or her ass and collect tickets. The collectors are grossly overpaid

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Originally posted by Sentinal You know, nobody on here will beleive this, because I am part of one, but I'm not a fan of unions either. Politically speaking i'm a conservative (please save the bashing on that for another time) I agree they can cause some serious problems, i.e. the TTC wildcat walkout a few years back. Maybe it is because I'm still green and new to the job, but there isnt a day that goes by that I don't count my lucky stars for having the job that I do. A lot of the drivers take it for granted, mostly because they forget what it is like to work in the private sector. But our management CONSTANTLY remids us of how lucky we are. I still remember the day of working in a morgue for 10/hr. Sucks, but I did it. But this all goes back to what I've been saying earlier. I have the opportunity to make other people's lives just a little bit easier. Maybe its only 3.00, but to them it my be a lot. You never know. Because I'm in a position to do this, I try help to as much as reasonably possible. There are many professions that deserve higher pay. Most jobs in fact. salaries have not increased with inflation since the 70's. Hence why men and women are working to sustain a household income now. But thats for another discussion I guess. Eventually if not already you will be recognized for being good at what you do and the money will follow then. It's like the old saying "if you are good at something you never do it for free".

I don't fault you for making this money..you obviously have kept things in perspective..I had the pleasure of having to take the ttc, subway and Go train two weeks ago to pick up my car..the trip took me a total of four house..(from maple to burlington..eeek)and I can say that it was a pleasant experience with many pleasant interactions with employees along the way...

I work for a government funded agency so in essence a government employee...I spend my days dealing with drug addicts, mental health patients and just generally undesirable people...I get verbally abused daily (just a part of the job)..I am in situations where I fear for my life and safety and hence am researching getting some pepper spray to carry with me....I see shit that most people don't even want to admit exists..but I'm cool with all that..cuz I LOVE my job and I am damn good at it....

My salary funnily enough is at the mid range for my industry and position but still less than half of the 120 000 figure I've heard being thrown around..Am I jealous? Not at all..I believe that people have the right to earn what is made available to them...who is going to turn away money..give me a break.. However, I am a bit bitter and shake my head at how "valued" some people are because they have the ability to put up a stink via the unions...If you are arguing that these salaries are deserved, I am going to have say that you as an individual possibly deserve it....but...not in a million years should some of these positions be paid as much as they are..totally undeserved..Not the person..the position.

I got my education. I have a career that I love and am good at...but as unfortunate as it is...agencies like mine are underfunded because the city has to divert money to accommodate the crazy demands of the unions...|Even in my industry, there are Social Workers that work for the city (unionized) and earn much more than me for the same position. For this I get a meager "pay equity" increase each year..Like at some point, we are going to be even with the unionized city worker..riiight..

You said that if I am good at what I do, I will be recognized...and you are very right....so explain to me, what is a ticket taker so good at that earns them the ability to make so much money? In some industries, you have to work hard and MAYBE the money will follow..but obviously, public transit employees don't have to progress in their position, they just get the money handed to them.....Your words of wisdom don't apply to unionized positions..

It's all good in the end because I have never believed that money is the reason you should get into a field..for me it's all about what I want to wake up to every morning.

btw, congrats on your job

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Originally posted by gummybear

Very well said

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Originally posted by gummybear I don't fault you for making this money..you obviously have kept things in perspective..I had the pleasure of having to take the ttc, subway and Go train two weeks ago to pick up my car..the trip took me a total of four house..(from maple to burlington..eeek)and I can say that it was a pleasant experience with many pleasant interactions with employees along the way... I work for a government funded agency so in essence a government employee...I spend my days dealing with drug addicts, mental health patients and just generally undesirable people...I get verbally abused daily (just a part of the job)..I am in situations where I fear for my life and safety and hence am researching getting some pepper spray to carry with me....I see shit that most people don't even want to admit exists..but I'm cool with all that..cuz I LOVE my job and I am damn good at it.... My salary funnily enough is at the mid range for my industry and position but still less than half of the 120 000 figure I've heard being thrown around..Am I jealous? Not at all..I believe that people have the right to earn what is made available to them...who is going to turn away money..give me a break.. However, I am a bit bitter and shake my head at how "valued" some people are because they have the ability to put up a stink via the unions...If you are arguing that these salaries are deserved, I am going to have say that you as an individual possibly deserve it....but...not in a million years should some of these positions be paid as much as they are..totally undeserved..Not the person..the position. I got my education. I have a career that I love and am good at...but as unfortunate as it is...agencies like mine are underfunded because the city has to divert money to accommodate the crazy demands of the unions...|Even in my industry, there are Social Workers that work for the city (unionized) and earn much more than me for the same position. For this I get a meager "pay equity" increase each year..Like at some point, we are going to be even with the unionized city worker..riiight.. You said that if I am good at what I do, I will be recognized...and you are very right....so explain to me, what is a ticket taker so good at that earns them the ability to make so much money? In some industries, you have to work hard and MAYBE the money will follow..but obviously, public transit employees don't have to progress in their position, they just get the money handed to them.....Your words of wisdom don't apply to unionized positions.. It's all good in the end because I have never believed that money is the reason you should get into a field..for me it's all about what I want to wake up to every morning. btw, congrats on your job

Thank you

I can't speak on the ticket takers because we dont have them here and I have no idea what their job description is. I can only comment on the drivers.

I guess my point all along has been first off we make about 65k a year. I think that is reasonable considering the responsibility of the job itself. The 117K that is crazy I agree. I have tried explaining why there is so much o/t earlier but yes that is a too much.

The unions, well, I think Toronto's chapter is way too pushy. Bob Kenear not very well respected even among the TTC employees. Mississauga's president is a lot more level headed. Thus why you really dont hear about on the news all that often if at all. York, Viva, and the TTC are on the news all the time. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I agree unions can be as good as they can be bad, they serve a purpose for the members. My beef was with the demeaning comments towards everyone in my profession including myself. I think it was uncalled for and terribly disrespectful.

On that note, I have to head and do a grocery shop, before I work yet again. My fridays and saturdays are gone for the next 2 months minimum. Everything is based on seniority, one more reason I'm kinda neutral about the whole union thing. Anyways hope to see you at guv again sometime.

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Originally posted by DeleteFromUsers It sounds like you haven't worked in manufacturing or construction. You are perhaps on the mark as far as white-collar jobs go. In blue-collar jobs, overtime is considered a benefit and workers get upset if you reduce/eliminate it. A lack of overtime is considered by management to be an indication of excessive staff or that the shop is running under capacity. Morally it doesn't sound good, but idealism and realism rarely converge in these matters. Assuming your workers are capable of maintaining productivity despite long hours, hiring one extra full time employee (with benefits) is *much* more expensive and *much* less flexible than having two current full time employees do 15-20 hours of OT. I could rattle on for quite some time about why OT works in manufacturing, but the point is that OT is not *considered* to be disrespectful or irresponsible in many industries.

You are right, I haven't worked in manufacturing, and this does make sense.

If it's repetitive work and relatively consistent conditions within the day, then workers should be able to maintain a reasonable level of productivity with 15-20 hours of overtime (although I'd argue that 25 hours or more is still excessive).

Also, if the workload is volatile (you don't know when you'll get an order, or for how much), and it's difficult to find part time or contract work, then a little overtime is better than another full-time employee.

It's not in every industry, though - including blue-collar industries - that it's even possible to distribute work in this way, let alone advantageous. I wouldn't exactly call driving a bus white-collar, but it involves hundreds of decisions, constantly changing conditions, totally consistent workload (routes are already set), and part-time workers are not difficult to find. Anything more than a few hours overtime, i.e. to cover a route for the guy who had to pick up his kids early from school, is completely illogical.

Even when dealing with skilled trades, as in electrical or plumbing or construction work (and our company employs all of those), the preferred approach is generally to use contractors. Works for us, since we don't have to pay people to do nothing in slow months, and works for them, because there are always other contracts during those months and they get lots of work from us when things do pick up. And yes, they are probably putting in some overtime when things do get hectic, but it's once in a while, not week after week.

I think your example is totally correct; it doesn't represent the general case however. I think there should be limits on overtime pay, at least in the public sector, and as with many other aspects of our employment standards, some industries would be exempt if they could justify what they're doing.

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Originally posted by Sentinal Thank you I can't speak on the ticket takers because we dont have them here and I have no idea what their job description is. I can only comment on the drivers. I guess my point all along has been first off we make about 65k a year. I think that is reasonable considering the responsibility of the job itself. The 117K that is crazy I agree. I have tried explaining why there is so much o/t earlier but yes that is a too much. The unions, well, I think Toronto's chapter is way too pushy. Bob Kenear not very well respected even among the TTC employees. Mississauga's president is a lot more level headed. Thus why you really dont hear about on the news all that often if at all. York, Viva, and the TTC are on the news all the time. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I agree unions can be as good as they can be bad, they serve a purpose for the members. My beef was with the demeaning comments towards everyone in my profession including myself. I think it was uncalled for and terribly disrespectful. On that note, I have to head and do a grocery shop, before I work yet again. My fridays and saturdays are gone for the next 2 months minimum. Everything is based on seniority, one more reason I'm kinda neutral about the whole union thing. Anyways hope to see you at guv again sometime.

hopefully at Decandence? You know where I can usually be found..lol..it's the same place you can be found as well...

Good luck with the new job..really..65K a year is a decent living and not at all over the top..

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Originally posted by Capo di tutti Evil Cookie...what the fuck do you do??what difference do you make??

I am an established FCW--Fortune Cookie Writer--people all over the world seek my guidance. A master of proverbs, I change lives one meal at a time.

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Originally posted by Sentinal we get paid what we do because anyone who knows anything about transit knows that we deserve it.

Wrong.

You get paid what you do because your union breaks the law to put itself into a bargaining position while administrators don't have the wherewithal to enforce punitive recourse (which should be: illegal strike = your fired).

There is no reason for anybody watching tokens drop into a box to get paid more than $12-$15 per hour. I could have 5000 people tomorrow signing up for that job and given the proper org-structure they would be a hell of a lot more vigilant than the current "fare watchers" (I don't even show my MDP card anymore when I walk through the open gates and nobody ever says "boo").

Bus driver? Sure you need to be alert and attentive to do your job well (so does everybody else BTW). There is no reason for anybody driving a bus 40 hours per week to get paid more than $60k per year. Again, I could have 2000 people tomorrow who would do it for that amount (with similar skill and safety records).

School bus drivers (who carry the most valuable passengers - children) make under $20/hour ($40k / year @ 40h/week). Why do public drivers deserve more to carry less-precious (mostly non-children) cargo?

Non-commodity jobs NEVER deserve commodity salaries.

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Originally posted by Sentinal Even tonight not more than 1.5 hours ago, some lady was drunk out of her tree, and later told me today was the anniversary of her husband passing away. Well I let her ride for free, and helped her off the bus.

Welcome to customer service!!! Everybody in the world who has a job does this type of stuff (either internally or externally), and no it doesn't mean someone should get higher compensation - it's a part of your day to day. Customer service is a given now-a-days (in fact, as someone who has MDP I'm a little miffed that you gave someone a free fare when they should be paying like everybody else).

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Last edited by rabbitjoker on Apr-04-2009 at 19:49

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Originally posted by rabbitjoker Welcome to customer service!!! Everybody in the world who has a job does this type of stuff (either internally or externally), and no it doesn't mean someone should get higher compensation - it's a part of your day to day. Customer service is a given now-a-days (in fact, as someone who has MDP I'm a little miffed that you gave someone a free fare when they should be paying like everybody else).

lol that's exactly what I told him about the customer service and giving a free ride. It's this type of attitude that bothers me, it's that he's bragging about being nice to customers as if he's going out of his way to do it because it's not part of the job. But if he wasn't part of a union that customer service is pretty much mandatory.

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Originally posted by rabbitjoker Wrong. You get paid what you do because your union breaks the law to put itself into a bargaining position while administrators don't have the wherewithal to enforce punitive recourse (which should be: illegal strike = your fired). There is no reason for anybody watching tokens drop into a box to get paid more than $12-$15 per hour. I could have 5000 people tomorrow signing up for that job and given the proper org-structure they would be a hell of a lot more vigilant than the current "fare watchers" (I don't even show my MDP card anymore when I walk through the open gates and nobody ever says "boo"). Bus driver? Sure you need to be alert and attentive to do your job well (so does everybody else BTW). There is no reason for anybody driving a bus 40 hours per week to get paid more than $60k per year. Again, I could have 2000 people tomorrow who would do it for that amount (with similar skill and safety records). School bus drivers (who carry the most valuable passengers - children) make under $20/hour ($40k / year @ 40h/week). Why do public drivers deserve more to carry less-precious (mostly non-children) cargo? Non-commodity jobs NEVER deserve commodity salaries. Welcome to customer service!!! Everybody in the world who has a job does this type of stuff (either internally or externally), and no it doesn't mean someone should get higher compensation - it's a part of your day to day. Customer service is a given now-a-days (in fact, as someone who has MDP I'm a little miffed that you gave someone a free fare when they should be paying like everybody else).

I love how even when I do a good deed I'm an evil person. She could barely walk and was having a rough go at it. Its completly my choice wether to enforce the fare or not. Customer service is one thing, but I can tell you guys right now that a lot of the other drivers would charge her and quite possibly not even pick her up because drunks are notoriously the hardest ppl to deal with on the bus. I'm not saying that is the right thing to do at all and ignoring a fare is terrible as far as I'm conserned. My union has nothing to do with my choice, and I will also have you guys know, not that I really have to explain myself at all but I will, I have never had to use my union in situation where I though I would lose my job over an issue. And yes every job you have to be alert and attentive but the point I think your missing is that if I'm not ppl get hurt or die, not quite the same with other alot of other jobs. And as for the 2000 ppl ready for the job comment. We have over 9000 applicants every year. People are chosen and hired for a reason and others are not. THEY AREN'T QUALIFIED. They either fall short on the customer service aspect, the safety aspect, or the common sense aspect. The application process as I mentioned earlier takes 2 years, they don't just hire anybody for the job.

I understand why you guys hate unions. I understand, but dont belittle me because of where I work. Many other ppl would take the job as I did. Calling us stupid or overpaid isnt fair. I didnt choose what I get paid, and MT hasnt gone on strike for 30 years, so the argument that we hold the general public hostage if we dont get what we want just simply doesnt fly. Maybe for the TTC but not for all transit companies, and thus generalising us very narrow minded.

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Originally posted by Invasionmix lol that's exactly what I told him about the customer service and giving a free ride. It's this type of attitude that bothers me, it's that he's bragging about being nice to customers as if he's going out of his way to do it because it's not part of the job. But if he wasn't part of a union that customer service is pretty much mandatory.

Actually Vince in the real world, with a private company, I would probibly get fired for giving the free ride. I can be a hard ass and charge but I found that being nice is a better approach and ppl appriciate it more. I have been given the liberty of using my perosonal discretion when and when not to enforce the fare. Out of the hundereds of ppl I driver every day i would say I give maybe one everyday maybe every other day. Maybe it is a partial fare, some ppl just dont have the money. Does that mean they are not entitled to get a ride home? I'm sure you don't know this and many ppl do not, but everyone has the right to access and use public transit. We cannot refuse a fare under any circumstances unless the passanger has been barred for a previous issue. I know some of the other drivers do refuse fares for expired transfers, no fares ect. But when they do they are actually breaking the rules not enforcing them. It is only appropriate to enfore a fare if the same person is constantly abusing the system. Then it is time to escalate the issue. And I think bragging is a totally wrong choice of words. for the last day I have been DEFENDING my job and all of those who have the same position, against an onslaught of negative preconcieved judgements about my job. My goal was for ppl to understand that there is more to it that simply driving and opening a door. And I'm sorry if my "attitude" bothers you, but the next time you get attacked about your means of making a living let me know how you feel.

Last edited by Sentinal on Apr-05-2009 at 03:39