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Communist
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Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Srimad Bhagavatam

quote:
Originally posted by DOOMBOT
The industrial revolution in the US happened during a time when notes were tied to a fixed amount of gold. Not exactly a 100% reserve banking system but not a free for all like we basically see today. I would say that this pretty much goes against your stagnation theory.


The 1800's were marked by extremely high cyclical volatility and protracted recessions, inadvertently caused by...the gold standard. I think everyone agrees that too much credit is bad. But one must realize business cycle occur in all economies, no matter what system is in place. To blame the system for a natural business cycle, seems naïve. If you are so caught up in making people live within their means that the people who really need a loan can't get one, you'v pretty much killed the economy. The solution is to find the right balance in credit levels. Recessions such as this one does that as people are saving and lenders tightening standards, without having a radical and devolutionary switch to a now defunct monetary system (gold standard). There is a reason every country in the world abandoned the gold standard.

Old Post Sep-25-2009 20:42  China
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DOOMBOT
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Sep 2004
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Communist
The 1800's were marked by extremely high cyclical volatility and protracted recessions, inadvertently caused by...the gold standard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...e_United_States

None of which were the fault of gold. Excess credit, inflation, default on debt, manipulation of interest rates, and loose monetary and fiscal policies lead to these panics/recessions/whatever you want to call them. Gold didn't cause any of these issues.

Old Post Sep-25-2009 21:01 
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DOOMBOT
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Sep 2004
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Communist
There is a reason every country in the world abandoned the gold standard.

It's called, force and control.

Old Post Sep-25-2009 21:19 
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Communist
tranceaddict



Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Srimad Bhagavatam

quote:
Originally posted by DOOMBOT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...e_United_States

None of which were the fault of gold. Excess credit, inflation, default on debt, manipulation of interest rates, and loose monetary and fiscal policies lead to these panics/recessions/whatever you want to call them. Gold didn't cause any of these issues.


The money supply should not be beholden to the supply of gold, but rather to the needs of the economy. Because of that, recessions during the gold standard were far worse and far longer than the ones we have today. If we were on a gold standard today, the Federal Reserve would not have been able to recapitalize the economy, and thus, would have led to a deflationary spiral, and a recession on the level of 1933.

Old Post Sep-25-2009 21:37  China
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Communist
tranceaddict



Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Srimad Bhagavatam

quote:
Originally posted by DOOMBOT
It's called, force and control.


That's your answer?

Old Post Sep-25-2009 21:39  China
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DOOMBOT
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Sep 2004
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Communist
The money supply should not be beholden to the supply of gold, but rather to the needs of the economy. Because of that, recessions during the gold standard were far worse and far longer than the ones we have today. If we were on a gold standard today, the Federal Reserve would not have been able to recapitalize the economy, and thus, would have led to a deflationary spiral, and a recession on the level of 1933.

Again, the recessions and panics in the 19th century were due to the things I highlighted above. It wasn't the fault of gold at all.

I'm honestly curious if there is anything that you read that directly says it was the fault of gold. You have any links?

Old Post Sep-25-2009 21:42 
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Communist
tranceaddict



Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Srimad Bhagavatam

quote:
Originally posted by DOOMBOT
Again, the recessions and panics in the 19th century were due to the things I highlighted above. It wasn't the fault of gold at all.

I'm honestly curious if there is anything that you read that directly says it was the fault of gold. You have any links?


Again, recessions are mitigated by increasing money supply during economic downturns. A gold standard prevents this because the money supply is beholden to the supply of gold, NOT the needs of the economy. Monetary policy would be beholden to gold production as fluctuations in the gold supply would lead to inflation or deflation, most often deflation. Shouldn't be a surprise the numerous deflationary spirals which occurred in the 19th and early 20th century.

The total value of all the gold ever mined is approximately $4.5 trillion. If we were to return to a gold standard and end fractional reserve banking, the economy would experience a massive deflationary spiral in addition to the skyrocketing price of gold.

Growing economies need growing money supply.

Here is something which should interest you...

http://econ161.berkeley.edu/Politic...ldstandard.html

Old Post Sep-25-2009 22:16  China
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DOOMBOT
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Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:
Originally posted by Communist
Again, recessions are mitigated by increasing money supply during economic downturns. A gold standard prevents this because the money supply is beholden to the supply of gold, NOT the needs of the economy. Monetary policy would be beholden to gold production as fluctuations in the gold supply would lead to inflation or deflation, most often deflation. Shouldn't be a surprise the numerous deflationary spirals which occurred in the 19th and early 20th century.

The total value of all the gold ever mined is approximately $4.5 trillion. If we were to return to a gold standard and end fractional reserve banking, the economy would experience a massive deflationary spiral in addition to the skyrocketing price of gold.

Growing economies need growing money supply.

Here is something which should interest you...

http://econ161.berkeley.edu/Politic...ldstandard.html

That link doesn't link a gold standard as being the cause of any of the recessions or panics of the 19th century.

But thanks for the read!

quote:
For example, in the spring of 1995 the dollar weakened against the yen. Under a gold standard, such a decline in the dollar would not have been allowed: instead the Federal Reserve would have raised interest rates considerably in order to keep the value of the dollar fixed at its gold parity, and a recession would probably have followed.

A recession did follow. It was called the Dot-Com bust.

quote:
* Countries that were not on the gold standard in 1929--or that quickly abandoned the gold standard--by and large escaped the Great Depression
* Countries that abandoned the gold standard in 1930 and 1931 suffered from the Great Depression, but escaped its worst ravages.
* Countries that held to the gold standard through 1933 (like the United States) or 1936 (like France) suffered the worst from the Great Depression
o Commitment to the gold standard prevented Federal Reserve action to expand the money supply in 1930 and 1931--and forced President Hoover into destructive attempts at budget-balancing in order to avoid a gold standard-generated run on the dollar.
o Commitment to the gold standard left countries vulnerable to "runs" on their currencies--Mexico in January of 1995 writ very, very large. Such a run, and even the fear that there might be a future run, boosted unemployment and amplified business cycles during the gold standard era.
o The standard interpretation of the Depression, dating back to Milton Friedman and Anna Schwartz's Monetary History of the United States, is that the Federal Reserve could have but for some mysterious reason did not boost the money supply to cure the Depression; but Friedman and Schwartz do not stress the role played by the gold standard in tieing the Federal Reserve's hands--the "golden fetters" of Eichengreen.
o Friedman was and is aware of the role played by the gold standard--hence his long time advocacy of floating exchange rates, the antithesis of the gold standard.

First of all, this piece forces the reader to try and believe that correlation equals causation. Second of all Hoover absolutely did instill government stimulus into the economy, which is contrary to popular belief.
http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,738193,00.html
http://www.larouchepac.com/news/200...ckage-1929.html

FDR expanded on it even more so (New Deal), which pushed us into a 15 year long Great Depression. It had absolutely nothing to do with being on a gold standard. There was plenty of stimulus going around that did absolutely the opposite of its intended purpose.

But anyway, I'd seriously like to read something that pins gold as being the cause of the recession and panics of the 1800s.

Last edited by DOOMBOT on Sep-25-2009 at 23:14

Old Post Sep-25-2009 22:28 
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pkcRAISTLIN
arbiter's chief minion



Registered: Jul 2002
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by DOOMBOT
I'm honestly curious if there is anything that you read that directly says it was the fault of gold. You have any links?


the single biggest contributor to the severity and prolonging of the Great Depression was rigid adherence to the gold standard.


___________________

Old Post Sep-25-2009 23:21  Australia
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DOOMBOT
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Sep 2004
Location:

Link/Source please.

Old Post Sep-25-2009 23:28 
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Communist
tranceaddict



Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Srimad Bhagavatam

quote:
Originally posted by DOOMBOT
That link doesn't link a gold standard as being the cause of any of the recessions or panics of the 19th century.

But thanks for the read!

A recession did follow. It was called the Dot-Com bust.


Recessions happen in every system, gold or fiat. But as I said the gold standard makes them worse and I gave reasons for that.

quote:
First of all, this piece forces the reader to try and believe that correlation equals causation. Second of all Hoover absolutely did instill government stimulus into the economy, which is contrary to popular belief.
http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,738193,00.html
http://www.larouchepac.com/news/200...ckage-1929.html


This is empirical data here with a logical explanation. If you have another explanation for why gold standarded countries suffered worst during the Great Depression, let's here it. Until then, simply giving me a correlation does not equal causation argument just won't suffice.

quote:
FDR expanded on it even more so (New Deal), which pushed us into a 15 year long Great Depression. It had absolutely nothing to do with being on a gold standard. There was plenty of stimulus going around that did absolutely the opposite of its intended purpose.


and FDR also suspended all exchange of gold into currency. Hmm, wonder why he did that...

quote:
But anyway, I'd seriously like to read something that pins gold as being the cause of the recession and panics of the 1800s.


I did mate. I just gave you reasons along with an article for why the gold standard makes recessions worse. Let me correct myself from before. The gold standard did not cause recessions, as recessions are simply natural business cycles present in any system. But rather, commodity standards make recessions much worse than they ought to be.

I'm assuming you don't attend a university, but if you can get access to a the peer-reviewed publication database, you'll find a treasure trove of scholarly academic work. Let me know if the following link works. This is a research paper I found on my university database. It's a great read if you want to understand where our modern international monetary system comes from...

http://0-web.ebscohost.com.lib.utep...9d@sessionmgr14

Old Post Sep-25-2009 23:59  China
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DOOMBOT
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Sep 2004
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Communist
Recessions happen in every system, gold or fiat. But as I said the gold standard makes them worse and I gave reasons for that.

Ok, but the author of your article seems to be a tad clueless. Just wanted to point that out.



quote:
This is empirical data here with a logical explanation. If you have another explanation for why gold standarded countries suffered worst during the Great Depression, let's here it. Until then, simply giving me a correlation does not equal causation argument just won't suffice.

I gave links/sources to back up my statement and also prove, once again, the author of your article is clueless. Link me to something else?



quote:
and FDR also suspended all exchange of gold into currency. Hmm, wonder why he did that...

FDR did a lot of stupid things that prolonged the Depression for 15 years.



quote:
I did mate. I just gave you reasons along with an article for why the gold standard makes recessions worse. Let me correct myself from before. The gold standard did not cause recessions, as recessions are simply natural business cycles present in any system. But rather, commodity standards make recessions much worse than they ought to be.

Say what?

quote:
I'm assuming you don't attend a university,

Haha, how did I know that this card would be played?

quote:
but if you can get access to a the peer-reviewed publication database, you'll find a treasure trove of scholarly academic work. Let me know if the following link works. This is a research paper I found on my university database. It's a great read if you want to understand where our modern international monetary system comes from...

http://0-web.ebscohost.com.lib.utep...9d@sessionmgr14

This is the last link that I read. The previous one was hideous.

Edit - I need a login/password to access the article.

Old Post Sep-26-2009 00:07 
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