quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I also don't think black American music is essentially vertical (blues? gospel? jazz?) in the first place.

Then there's this "black culture is not word-based" bullshit. How exactly is hip-hop not "word-based"?

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> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Then there's this "black culture is not word-based" bullshit. How exactly is hip-hop not "word-based"?

rapping is not hip hop, and not all hip hop includes rapping. hip hop was a layering, a collage of old funk breaks. furthermore, rapping itself is concerned much more with rhythm, rhyme, etc than the words themselves, especially relative to other forms of lyrical music.

and, ever heard of dub music?

anyways I put it in terms of black and white on purpose to establish clear conceptual poles, but obviously individuals give and take from both traditions. and obviously no matter what culture you are, there exist both images and words. my point was not to say one is strictly one and the other is strictly the other, but rather that there is a dominance of image or word in either.

Furthermore, I am not talking about contemporary black culture or european culture, but rather, origins. there is obviously a european song/hymn tradition in america originating from its protestant founders, and this is the 'gospel' you mention. obviously there is a mix of traditions in music now as there is a mix of people.

Black musicians in the 20th century examined their roots, explored concepts of 'blackness'. the results of this are things like free jazz, psychedelic funk, dub, etc, which destroyed the 'song'. Dub even surrounded a cultural and religious movement, rastafarianism, which glorified africa and african origins.

now, techno is probably more colorblind than dub or it is alien, so maybe I will admit that the connection of african origins to techno is more tenuous, but please keep in mind that this is not something I am only claiming, but something that, for the most part, the musicians themselves support.

Also, you have to ask yourself why techno didn't begin with white kids in minnesota or something. Isn't it a little weird that virtually all of the originators of house and techno come from african roots? and there were many more than just the 'belleville three' This is not just some fiction I have created for the sake of my argument.

quote:

their music encodes some sort of genetic prehistoric cave painting method of communication seems nothing short of fucking racist.

No, this is 'fucking racist'. Sorry, but I did not imply that in any way, this was your invention.

'image' refers to a perceptual mode, not something literal a fucking cave painting. i thought you were smarter than this (or maybe you are just trolling)

Last edited by nefardec on Nov-19-2009 at 18:10

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec No, this is 'fucking racist'. Sorry, but I did not imply that in any way, this was your invention. 'image' refers to a perceptual mode, not something literal a fucking cave painting. i thought you were smarter than this (or maybe you are just trolling)

I thought you were smarter than this freeform bullshit you're inventing and then backtracking over.

If I said a white child was born in a village of some remote tribe with no written language and was raised in that culture, and yet that child had an inherent grasp of "word based culture" simply because they were white, it'd be fucking ridiculous. Black Americans have lived in the same culture as white Americans for hundreds of years. Ancient black culture is absolutely irrelevant. Any notion there's some inherent non-European culture in black people has to be genetic. Which is why I extended the implication to the notion that black people are inherently prehistoric. Which is your underlying racist connection, despite all your hasty retreading.

You can reference as many pretentious books as you like, but what you said is quite clearly ludicrous. Rapping, MCing, toasting is all black musical culture. It may not be hip-hop, but that's just fucking around with semantics to save face. The musical forms JBJ mentioned are no more "vertical" in composition than many white forms, and the fact rastafarianism promoted African origins doesn't change that.

Finally, this whole argument is very dualistic of you, seperating white and black culture, vertical and horizontal composition. You're a walking mass of ad hoc faux-intellectual drivel sometimes.

___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

The musical forms that fathered house and techno were also largely black in terms of composers and listening base, at least in their early stages, so it's no surprise that the founders of house and techno would themselves be black. I think the fact the founders of house and techno were black has zip to do with any *actual* influence of any specific African music. I mean, do you ever see techno pioneers citing specific native African musicians, recordings, or musical styles? Seems to me the so-called "influence" of African music on techno may be more about the "influence" of a certain mythology or archetype, e.g. that African music simply *is* "hypnotic drum-trance stuff," and an attempt by certain black Americans to embody such an archetype in modern sounds.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Black Americans have lived in the same culture as white Americans for hundreds of years. Ancient black culture is absolutely irrelevant. Any notion there's some inherent non-European culture in black people has to be genetic. Which is why I extended the implication to the notion that black people are inherently prehistoric. Which is your underlying racist connection, despite all your hasty retreading.

no.

my comment was not racist, yours was. I never discussed genetics, i only discussed culture.

'ancient' black culture actually isn't so ancient, and it's not irrelevant because the artists themselves were actually fascinated and inspired by it, and they made music because of it.









JBJ - i didnt say that the influence had to do with music, i said it had to do with a perceptual mode of thinking dominant in a culture, which was manifested in certain forms and influenced its sons and daughters who looked back to it in order to discover themselves.

System J, you are too focused on the dualism itself and not the continuum that it creates. Dominance of either image or word in a culture fluctuates along this continuum.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec 'ancient' black culture actually isn't so ancient, and it's not irrelevant because the artists themselves were actually fascinated and inspired by it, and they made music because of it.

But we weren't talking about Miles Davis or Sun Ra, we were talking about techno.

How is that culture relevant to techno? And anyway, I still don't buy that African culture is any more "image-based" or less "word-based" than Euro culture in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles But we weren't talking about Miles Davis or Sun Ra, we were talking about techno.

who do you think techno artists grew up listening to? what did their parents listen to?

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec my comment was not racist, yours was. I never discussed genetics, i only discussed culture.

Are you even reading what I'm saying? They didn't live in a non-word-based culture. Never had. The only connection they had to non-word-based black culture was being black. That's genetic. Think about the implications of your babble.

Saying black culture is not about words is almost literally denying black people a voice. Post-colonialists would have a fucking field day with your nonsense.

quote:

and it's not irrelevant because the artists themselves were actually fascinated and inspired by it, and they made music because of it.

Really? Because here's me thinking you claimed techno was interested in utopian futurism, not history. Have you actually read those quotes from that first "Techno!" compilation? I'm sure you have. The Belleville trio don't sound very interested in a continuum with their African heritage there, do they?

Sun Ra has nothing to do with this argument. The fact some black musicians embraced their African heritage does not mean all of them do, and it doesn't mean all of black culture is interested only its African origins. That's the logic of stereotyping. The hole you dig just gets deeper. Why don't you stop talking such shite and admit you made something up off the top of your head that sounded weighty and deep only because you put no real thought into its implications?

___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec who do you think techno artists grew up listening to? what did their parents listen to?

I grew up reading Roald Dahl novels, so obviously my own writing is concerned with big friendly giants and talking foxes. Fuck's sake.

___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I grew up reading Roald Dahl novels, so obviously my own writing is concerned with big friendly giants and talking foxes. Fuck's sake.

Near as I can tell, many of them were interested in both the past and the future, which is probably what makes so much of the music they produced rather timeless.

(Dark Energy also happens to be one of my all-time favourite UR pieces - phenomenal piece of work)

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quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Are you even reading what I'm saying? They didn't live in a non-word-based culture. Never had. The only connection they had to non-word-based black culture was being black. That's genetic. Think about the implications of your babble.

Of course, but I am not concerned with the artists blackness - they themselves are, and they are making music about it!

just take for example robert hood:

listen to his 'Nighttime World' albums. Particulatly the tracks 'the color of skin', 'electric ******', and 'blackness'. here are some links to samples:
http://www.boomkat.com/item.cfm?id=92816

look at his myspace. the top two musician friends he has are sun-ra and george clinton.

read this quote from his bio (not relevant to african influences, but his commitment to black culture.

quote:

Although his desire to remain underground has been replaced by an urge to reach a wider audience, Hood remains fiercely critical of artistic and economic movements destructive to inner-city communities and has combined his musical enterprises with outreach and social activist ends. With this in mind the seminal ‘Nighttime World Pt.1’ in 1995 and ‘Nighttime World Pt.2’ in 2000 incorporating Jazz, Soul, Hip Hop as well as Techno and House.

this is a rob hood track with his wife doing vocals.

listen to this and suck a big one SYSTEM-J

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Saying black culture is not about words is almost literally denying black people a voice. Post-colonialists would have a fucking field day with your nonsense.

it's not dominated by WRITTEN word. spoken word, it most definitely is. I just realized I should have made that clearer from the beginning - I thought I did when I mentioned the development of the alphabet but I guess not.

if anyone here is denying black techno artists a voice, it is you, for denying that which they are saying so clearly - in essence "techno is our music and music for our ancestors".

i'm going to repost that record pivot techno posted just in case you pretend to not see it

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Really? Because here's me thinking you claimed techno was interested in utopian futurism, not history. Have you actually read those quotes from that first "Techno!" compilation? I'm sure you have. The Belleville trio don't sound very interested in a continuum with their African heritage there, do they?

see above video. you shouldn't fixate on the belleville three, they weren't the only ones.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Sun Ra has nothing to do with this argument. The fact some black musicians embraced their African heritage does not mean all of them do, and it doesn't mean all of black culture is interested only its African origins. That's the logic of stereotyping. The hole you dig just gets deeper. Why don't you stop talking such shite and admit you made something up off the top of your head that sounded weighty and deep only because you put no real thought into its implications?

again, sun-ra was a huge influence on robert hood, and that's his statement, not mine. I am tending towards generalizations because I have to make a point within the space of a internet forum thread, it's not as if am writing a book.

please stop making this so personal, especially with trying to discern my motives. you are quite an asshole.

Last edited by nefardec on Nov-20-2009 at 00:41