quote:

Originally posted by Storyteller He's from Australia I think. He wants to be Dutch real bad though, that's for sure.

dutch parents, though i was born in aus
Australia is a nationless state in a lot of ways (relatively new state, and filled with people who are essentially imigrants, like my family), and i identify more with dutch history which is technically my ancestry, but I don't speak dutch etc

i don't really see a problem with calling myself dutch in my circumstances, although i guess it's pretty stupid

to be called australian merely means you're an english or irish settler of 10 generations... that's just english or irish to me...

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Originally posted by Timothy What universities are you talking about? TU Delft ( seeing as you're also from Holland ) which is not a random university are promoting HP elitebooks with nVidea FX770M GPU for students. Good luck doing any serious CAD work on a MAC. And the engineering software I run, runs faster under Windows than under OSX for some strange reason. Not only is there a difference in hardware processing power, but also a difference in sofware performance in different OS.

yeah sorry, i was referring to the creative design/arts, such as graphic design, rather than engineering, which you are completely right now i think about it are done usually on PC for cad...

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quote:

Originally posted by EgosXII yeah sorry, i was referring to the creative design/arts, such as graphic design, rather than engineering, which you are completely right now i think about it are done usually on PC for cad...

That's not exactly right - I just finished a large project that involved architects, designers and engineers (structural) all using CAD for their own disclipines.

The designers and architects were all mac, and the engineers were all PC - no exceptions.

quote:

Originally posted by EgosXII just cause it doesn't apply to you doesn't mean it's not (and shouldn't be a majore concern for lots of people) and the same comment to kit... just because you think computer purchasing is black and white (good or bad) doesn't mean everyone does... things you value might be useless to others for example... i completely agree with what rann said, and it's why i ended up getting a a mac.. i personally was willing to sacrifice minimal processing differences for overall system stability... again, it's personal opinion, and about personal work-flow, but that's exactly why the PC vs Mac argument is pointless and never ends... EDIT: OH, and for logic too any person i've met doing graphics, or design at tertiary levels i've ever met have macs, and are told to get them by their universities... why would this be, if PCs have such amazing graphics cards??

FYI, Win7 is technically more secure than OSX in case you missed all the articles and discussion about it.

There's more viruses for Win because there are just that many more Win machines out there, so the hackers have a much larger target.
If OSX ever gets to a comparative market share as Windows (good luck with that one), then we'll all have a good laugh at how ridiculous the statement that Macs are less virus prone is.

Point is, you should be looking at value for money when buying and in the current climate, a PC is better value for money than a Mac at the top end.

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quote:

Originally posted by Fledz FYI, Win7 is technically more secure than OSX in case you missed all the articles and discussion about it. There's more viruses for Win because there are just that many more Win machines out there, so the hackers have a much larger target. If OSX ever gets to a comparative market share as Windows (good luck with that one), then we'll all have a good laugh at how ridiculous the statement that Macs are less virus prone is. Point is, you should be looking at value for money when buying and in the current climate, a PC is better value for money than a Mac at the top end.

i know that man, i wasn't talking in terms of how things should be, or could be, but how things are...

the truth is it's almost impossible to get viruses on macs, and they are generally pretty stable, which for SOME people will win over a slightly cheaper, or slightly better, PC which does not cover the above bases...

i was just trying to point out the other side... i went with a mac after having a PC my whole ccomputer-using life because i wanted logic, and a comp that was really stable, in general, AND for using external devices...

havn't used windows 7, was merely pointing out the reality of my personal case, and what i think is pretty common...

perhaps you don't have a stability issue using windows, but i think you'll find a LARGE amount of people do, even if they are caused by the user...


also, viruses have to do with windows giving out their code like whores too doesn't it? to get the mac development codes is really really difficult...?
that was my understanding anyway... more people using windows = more people having viruses, but people creating the viruses need the development kits to do it...

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quote:

Originally posted by EgosXII he truth is it's almost impossible to get viruses on macs, and they are generally pretty stable, which for SOME people will win over a slightly cheaper, or slightly better, PC which does not cover the above bases...

Thats what I keep saying though, its not just a slightly better PC, its a whole new generation of processors with 2 MORE CORES! And PC are several generations ahead in terms of graphics too. Its not just a small differenece, its vast.

There was a thread on the ableton forums where they compared the performance of various computers using ableton in a standardised benchmark. So this directly translates into audio processing improvement.

The general score for macbook pros was around 47-70%(!!!) CPU usage with the average being around 60% or so. My computer (3 years old, toshiba laptop with a core2duo and a 4200 RPM disk) scored about 60-65. A new Core i7 scored something like 20-30 (mostly around 20%). Thats a huge increase in performance, and thats why I'm obsessing about it. To say that mac hardware can compete in the current climate is quite simply wrong, the PC will probably perform around three times faster.

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic....111880&start=15
look at the figures on the macbooks yourself and tell me they're a good buy.

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quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN You kind of self defeated the post by opening with "for me" then saying it's not about criteria. What I'm trying to say, is that people look for different things in a platform or system. To most producers they want stability and fast workflow - this is the main priority for anyone that is serious. I think processing power is becoming less of an overall issue as the rate at which CPU speeds have been growing has slowed dramatically over the last few years - the playing field is more level than ever. That's why I believe that (as Egos said) the minimal trade off in slightly lesser CPU power to get system stability, OSX, Logic and an incredibly well designed system is worth it. Also, I don't see any of my producer friends struggling in terms of CPU power with their macbooks and any one of the DAW's they use. This indicates to me (at least anecdotally) that CPU power is not an issue with mactops. Therefore the need for super CPU speed becomes less a point for criteria of making your platform selection. I don't get how you can say battery life isn't an issue for consideration - we're talking about laptops not desktops. And yes, a lot of people will use them in a fixed situation but many have portable rigs where battery life is a big concern. I've got a brand new asus laptop and I get 2.5 hours if I'm lucky. I've seen friends get 5hours+ out of their mactops.

You can get stability and fast workflow with a PC. It takes very minimal maintanence to do so.

Anyone who's serious will never run important music applications while running off battery power. Ever. No DJ will play live without a battery pack. Anything else your doing that needs mobility isn't really relevant to this discussion since it won't be music related.

From where I'm sitting, CPU speed is a huge issue, and anyone doing more forward thinking stuff will agree I suspect. If your just mixing down 12 tracks then its not an issue, but if your running reaktor and MAX/MSP and mangling a signal to death, then it really is. Lots of producers I know struggle with CPU a lot. And as I pointed out before, its not just a "small" discepancy between the macs and PCs.

I don't have a problem with people buying mac desktops or lower end macbooks right now, but I think anyone about to buy a macbook pro is doing themselves a disservice that they'll really start to feel in six months when everyone's running core i7 quads for audio and they're stuck with a core2 duo.

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Originally posted by kitphillips Thats what I keep saying though, its not just a slightly better PC, its a whole new generation of processors with 2 MORE CORES! And PC are several generations ahead in terms of graphics too. Its not just a small differenece, its vast. There was a thread on the ableton forums where they compared the performance of various computers using ableton in a standardised benchmark. So this directly translates into audio processing improvement. The general score for macbook pros was around 47-70%(!!!) CPU usage with the average being around 60% or so. My computer (3 years old, toshiba laptop with a core2duo and a 4200 RPM disk) scored about 60-65. A new Core i7 scored something like 20-30 (mostly around 20%). Thats a huge increase in performance, and thats why I'm obsessing about it. To say that mac hardware can compete in the current climate is quite simply wrong, the PC will probably perform around three times faster. http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic....111880&start=15 look at the figures on the macbooks yourself and tell me they're a good buy.

ok this is all fair enough, i was speaking without realising how improved the new stuff is, sorry about that.

edit: there is a huge difference across the board though to be fair, the top of the line mac (desktop) got 21% which seems to be around the same as the top of the line pcs... while shit pcs and shit macs got around the same as well...

again this is not taking into account the new pcs etc i suppose..

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quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips You can get stability and fast workflow with a PC. It takes very minimal maintanence to do so. Anyone who's serious will never run important music applications while running off battery power. Ever. No DJ will play live without a battery pack. Anything else your doing that needs mobility isn't really relevant to this discussion since it won't be music related. From where I'm sitting, CPU speed is a huge issue, and anyone doing more forward thinking stuff will agree I suspect. If your just mixing down 12 tracks then its not an issue, but if your running reaktor and MAX/MSP and mangling a signal to death, then it really is. Lots of producers I know struggle with CPU a lot. And as I pointed out before, its not just a "small" discepancy between the macs and PCs. I don't have a problem with people buying mac desktops or lower end macbooks right now, but I think anyone about to buy a macbook pro is doing themselves a disservice that they'll really start to feel in six months when everyone's running core i7 quads for audio and they're stuck with a core2 duo.

i routinely run logic with assloads of plugs off battery power without my sound card on my white macbook with no worries at all... it usually has a bit of a 'warm-up' stage on tunes that are in their final stages (with assloads of plugins and channels), but it's usually fine, and would be a consideration for me if i was buying a new laptop because i do a lot of fundamental production on the move, just with headphones and laptop...



i think your last mini-paragraph is a good point though in general for sure
it's why i decided to get a personally updated white one, instead of a MBP

further edit:
for me personally i don't care about djing with my laptop, so though speed is obviously very important i really don't mind that much if logic overloads once in a while and i have to hit 'continue' before i can push play again, if OVERALL the system never crashes etc..
i havn't tried windows 7, but i've never had to force reset my mac, never had BSOD or anything similar.

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Last edited by EgosXII on Mar-13-2010 at 05:41

Running Logic is irrelevant. If you want to use Logic then your choice has already been made for you.

What sequencers don't support more than 2 cores?

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took that out, dunno what i was thinking, i was wronnggg. so wrong

the consideration of using PCs on the move would also be relevant to me though...

in fact i'm considering getting a cheap small PC that i can take everywhere with me, and i'm hoping to use ableton on it for jotting down ideas

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Last edited by EgosXII on Mar-13-2010 at 05:54

quote:

Originally posted by EgosXII ok this is all fair enough, i was speaking without realising how improved the new stuff is, sorry about that. edit: there is a huge difference across the board though to be fair, the top of the line mac (desktop) got 21% which seems to be around the same as the top of the line pcs... while shit pcs and shit macs got around the same as well... again this is not taking into account the new pcs etc i suppose..

Nah nah, your totally right, top of the line mac desktop = top of the line PC desktop.

Its just macbooks that are a problem at the moment, and it looks like they'll keep being a problem if they put a dual core i7 in them rather than giving the option of a quad core.

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