Raphie, i totally get what you're saying here and i fully agree.
I too have seen the phenomenon of supposed new brekaing tracks in the trance and fullon psytrance styles and while i will admit that i did find some interesting stuff there, most of it is just the same mediocre yet well-produced stuff out there, not innovating, but just emulating the same kind of feeling and sound.

As an amateur producer i do produce my own tracks and try to innovate, even though i only rarely produce these days.
I have posted some of my stuff on this board to be critiqued, hoping even for harsh, condescending negative feedback, but no nothing, no response, as if i hadn't posted.

I'll post my stuff here again, but this time to see whether it is different than the styles i have found inspiration in.
Honestly, i don't care whether people tell me it's just the same ol same ol, i just want to have an honest answer.



Is this different from regular cracker mctrance and fullon psyderp or am i just biased towards my own production here?



What about this, is this stereotypical 8 bit stuff or prog mctrance?



And here?
Does it differ from most ambient and soundtrack tracks or am i just going with the flow here?



This old one of mine must be different, one does not make a trance track so long and with so many different sections to emulate other producers.
The echo is still shoddy, MPT somehow keeps making the echo time longer or shorter than i intend it to be, need to fix this.

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quote:

Originally posted by identity7 There is something in the shit. Millions of flies can't be wrong either

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN I don't want to make this about complextro (fuck I can't even believe I'm discussing this, what an embarrassingly shit name for a genre and it's things like this endless micro genre naming that make me hate EDM) - it's not about that at all but Raphie actually fucking nailed it on in his sentiments about a lot of current EDM (regardless of genre) missing great melody, progression or composition as a whole, and being called dated if it doesn't have these current cliched aesthetics. 4 or 8 bars of some gimmicky uplifting melody surrounded by phat stuttered basslines and endless vocodered glitch FX does not make good arrangement or a musical composition. Not an attack at you Richie; you know I'd give you dibs on my favorite a rent boy if you asked, or cup your balls on a frosty winters morn, but honestly I'm quite shocked sometimes by your apparent terrible taste in EDM at times. For someone that i know has serious chops and detailed compositional knowledge, akin to the guys I worked with, it seems you are so easily impressed by surface aesthetics and simple tricks which cover said lack of substance (with exception to your recent disco tracks). Of course, you can't explain your tastes in even a few 100 posts of youtube vids here, but still, the examples I see you put up sometimes, and the music that you enthuse about is sometimes nothing short of cringeworthy; that flash in the pan dross that is all about how big and phat it sounds, yet the content is just awful. You know I wonder if it's a a composer thing - one of my buddies (former sub composer at RC) has the same boner for such disposable and fleeting music, to the point he's obsessive about this new phat current thing (until it moves on), yet for score work he creates some pretty beautiful, timeless and meaningful work. I wonder if it's like a release thing? Ying Yang? Fuck knows.

I think you don't really get what I get out of it. Where as you are trying to get something you expect, i notice new things that have not been done and those things are added to my palette as a composer. You go on about melody but why would I even bother with EDM if this is what i'm after. Why would I listen to EDM if i was curious about harmony. The only thing EDM adds to music is production, and as such new production trends that I find innovative guide what i I listen to. Electro was a genre that pushed certain boundaries, you may hate it, but there are definitely new things that were going on. That has value for me. Most composers , musicians, musicologists would argue that melody is actually the most superficial of all music's tenants. It is the simplest thing the grasp. tends to have the least amount of substance and i do rather enjoy melody, music that doesn't have what you consider a nice melody is not a sign of inferior music. Most critics would say the opposite. Palatable melodies are usually the sign of music that has nothing to offer but cheap thrills for minds that require nothing more.

I wouldn't deny that about 95 % of the tracks and producers are awful, I find Seandroid's music just horrid and it sort of outlines this ADD insert as many sounds as possible without understanding why certain guys did it and how those sounds , formed a cohesive 8 bar phrase. People are just inserting anything anywhere but i 've always found that almost all dance music is garbage regardless of genre. I mean i would say that about almost all music.

I would say i'm not in the business of defending genres. I can pick out tracks in alot of genres that i find novel and interesting. the electro side of house seems to be where most of the new innovations where happening. In the last year, i would say things have sort of come to a grinding halt. But that is like every genre after a big growth spurt. I would also say despite not really being nuts about EDM, i seem to know more about it. Perhaps it is the systematic way I force myself to listen to a certain number of hours of music in certain styles per week, along with my training and experience producing, but for each track i like, i can tell you why. I can tell you what about this track gives it value ,i can also tell you why another track in the same genre does not. A nice melody for me is inconsequential. Because there is no mystery regarding melody or harmony. That was mastered to perfection 50 years ago. THere have been no new melodies or harmonies. Everything is a synthesis of stuff already done, repackaged , in a different order but the same.

Production is the only thing in music changing. And i suppose when i listen to EDM , this is more important than melody which more often than not, is more offensive like junk food. ONe thing i've noticed is that your tastes have not changed which is common for those that listen not to learn but to enjoy. The brain expects something, and then it gets it, and you feel good which is how Huron explains why we like the music we like. But people that create music, i think there are different mechanisms at play. Listen to atonal music, Schoenberg , Zanakis, Berg , Webern , Stravinsky. It is fucking hard to listen to. But once you've sort of followed the history of music, this noise , well you understand why people started making it and see the value. Most at the time were content with tonality but most modern composers realized everything had been done and what is the point of music if it is the same.

To the poster above, i mean really ? You honestly think someone could say something nice about that ? I'm not going to even bother.

___________________
"This is why Superman works alone." GC
old stuff from days gone by (2001-2004)
Mad For Brad's gay little contest

Last edited by Looney4Clooney on May-30-2012 at 19:27

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney I think you don't really get what I get out of it. Where as you are trying to get something you expect, i notice new things that have not been done and those things are added to my palette as a composer. You go on about melody but why would I even bother with EDM if this is what i'm after. Why would I listen to EDM if i was curious about harmony. The only thing EDM adds to music is production, and as such new production trends that I find innovative guide what i I listen to. Electro was a genre that pushed certain boundaries, you may hate it, but there are definitely new things that were going on. That has value for me. Most composers , musicians, musicologists would argue that melody is actually the most superficial of all music's tenants. It is the simplest thing the grasp. tends to have the least amount of substance and i do rather enjoy melody, music that doesn't have what you consider a nice melody is not a sign of inferior music. Most critics would say the opposite. Palatable melodies are usually the sign of music that has nothing to offer but cheap thrills for minds that require nothing more. I wouldn't deny that about 95 % of the tracks and producers are awful, I find Seandroid's music just horrid and it sort of outlines this ADD insert as many sounds as possible without understanding why certain guys did it and how those sounds , formed a cohesive 8 bar phrase. People are just inserting anything anywhere but i 've always found that almost all dance music is garbage regardless of genre. I mean i would say that about almost all music. I would say i'm not in the business of defending genres. I can pick out tracks in alot of genres that i find novel and interesting. the electro side of house seems to be where most of the new innovations where happening. In the last year, i would say things have sort of come to a grinding halt. But that is like every genre after a big growth spurt. I would also say despite not really being nuts about EDM, i seem to know more about it. Perhaps it is the systematic way I force myself to listen to a certain number of hours of music in certain styles per week, along with my training and experience producing, but for each track i like, i can tell you why. I can tell you what about this track gives it value ,i can also tell you why another track in the same genre does not. A nice melody for me is inconsequential. Because there is no mystery regarding melody or harmony. That was mastered to perfection 50 years ago. THere have been no new melodies or harmonies. Everything is a synthesis of stuff already done, repackaged , in a different order but the same. Production is the only thing in music changing. And i suppose when i listen to EDM , this is more important than melody which more often than not, is more offensive like junk food. ONe thing i've noticed is that your tastes have not changed which is common for those that listen not to learn but to enjoy. The brain expects something, and then it gets it, and you feel good which is how Huron explains why we like the music we like. But people that create music, i think there are different mechanisms at play. Listen to atonal music, Schoenberg , Zanakis, Berg , Webern , Stravinsky. It is fucking hard to listen to. But once you've sort of followed the history of music, this noise , well you understand why people started making it and see the value. Most at the time were content with tonality but most modern composers realized everything had been done and what is the point of music if it is the same. To the poster above, i mean really ? You honestly think someone could say something nice about that ? I'm not going to even bother.

I agree with a fair amount of your sentiments, but if you listen to what you regard EDM as, it's clear it's really a just a tool or some learning experience in terms of production for you, whereas for me, I've all been an enthusiast, both as a consumer (clubbing/DJ) and as a professional (Engineer/amateur producer).

The biggest difference here is how we both hear it so differently - the production side of things bores the piss out of me as I find it so fucking easy to hear the FX for what it is in so many circumstances (just fluff to cover a complete absence of content), not to mention recreate the chiched FX that people have such boners for. Even when it is something interesting production wise, it's a matter of minutes before everyone else has ripped it off an it's dull again.

You as a composer, have no problem with melody in your own work and I stated from the outset that most new EDM is horrid in terms of melodic composition, but it's just the aesthetic that really turns you on as you can take that melodic content for granted. I think it's because you listen to a lot of classical which has real melody and arrangement that you don't care for a dumbed/watered down offerings in EDM (even if it's that rare really good melodic EDM track).

What i'm saying is it's about perspective - You couldn't give a toss for melodic EDM as you rightly find much more complex and beautiful melodies in other forms of music and just want that production aesthetic as a learning experience or cool fleeting gimmick. I couldn't give a shit for solely production aesthetic as I listen to EDM for fun and find the engineering bias just boring. I will say music in a club is slightly different - there's a lot of music I woulnd never play just listening at home but really enjoy in a club. That's possibly the only place I might favor some of those gimmicks and production techniques more highly but even then it get's boring pretty quick without real melodic content.

you can still have new bleeps and bloops while managing to stick a hook or two in there...

even its already been used....