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Originally posted by Verona^My It's long been known that it was a weapons factory. The dictator of Sudan tried to cover it up as something else, like all good dictators do. Dictators are well known to put civilians in military buildings so they can say we kill civilians, or to stage medical facilities and the like. It's really the only way a dictator can make us look bad, and I choose to ignore it, because it's BS. Many people however, are fooled by dictators, the games they play, and the propaganda only dictators are able to put out in the way they do. I choose not to buy into Al-Queda propaganda. I dont care about the US propaganda, it's the Al-Queda propaganda that's the real threat here.

HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT IT WAS A WEAPONS PLANT, WWWHEN THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DIED AFTER THE BOMBING BECUASE THEY HAD NO MEDICINE?!??!?!?!?!?!??!??!?! LOOK CLOSER... stop beleiveing the conspiracy ideals propogated by your government.... and if weapons were being made there... the Nuer would be dead by now... and who are the Nuer.. well.. if you dont who they are...then dont even talk about the bombing.

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"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

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Originally posted by Cyrus King HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT IT WAS A WEAPONS PLANT, WWWHEN THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DIED AFTER THE BOMBING BECUASE THEY HAD NO MEDICINE?!??!?!?!?!?!??!??!?! LOOK CLOSER... stop beleiveing the conspiracy ideals propogated by your government.... and if weapons were being made there... the Nuer would be dead by now... and who are the Nuer.. well.. if you dont who they are...then dont even talk about the bombing.

dude, drop it. and take a chill pill.


back to the pacifism issue, i think the best way to instill pacifism is to outlaw religion. Sounds radical, yes, but i bet it would work

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Peace.

I like to defend the USA. Canadians are pretty bad at mercylessly bashing the US based on thin or none existing evidence. Sure America has acted out of self interest, but so has every nation or empire. Being a part of Western Society that upholds democracy as a fundamental value, benefitting hugely from America in an economic sense, I tend to be supportive of America. As much as people like to think of America as being this big evil superpower, I think they do a pretty good job. Just my opinion.

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Originally posted by drewfactor I like to defend the USA. Canadians are pretty bad at mercylessly bashing the US based on thin or none existing evidence. Sure America has acted out of self interest, but so has every nation or empire. Being a part of Western Society that upholds democracy as a fundamental value, benefitting hugely from America in an economic sense, I tend to be supportive of America. As much as people like to think of America as being this big evil superpower, I think they do a pretty good job. Just my opinion.

I like that you brought up the 'Western' part. It helps coming from a non-USer too! The thing is, other western nations act like they are entirely separate from the US, when we are all completely linked, and so called 'western' nations are more alike that dissimilar.

As far as how good of a job we do is completely up to interpretation. I just get uneasy when other Western Nations accuse the US of being completely separate from their existence, when in most cases they rely on the US in some way - and YES, we rely on them too|

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'That's like telling a Kodiak bear to stop fcking older men.'

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Originally posted by ABTsportsline dude, drop it. and take a chill pill. back to the pacifism issue, i think the best way to instill pacifism is to outlaw religion. Sounds radical, yes, but i bet it would work

that is interesting- explain your reasoning- i am really confused as to how you could think that!

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Originally posted by trancedfarmer that is interesting- explain your reasoning- i am really confused as to how you could think that!

i think i understand what he means. if you think about it, religion has been the direct cause of most wars fought throughout history. and even when a war isnt directly caused by religion, its religious-cultural differences that influence battle and power struggles the 'our people are better than yours' mentality.

at the same time if we on a world level banned the practice of religion, people would not only keep practicing in secret, but become highly agitated at that notion.

personally i dont think thats a solution, and interest angle on the issue, but as far as im concerned pacifism is largely impossible|

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'That's like telling a Kodiak bear to stop fcking older men.'

religion wasnt the cause- stupid people were the cause! stupid stupid people... most religions are against violent force. and when popes declare holy wars and shit like that, what are they fighting for in reality- almost always for a culture, a race or an irreligious dogma, never for an ideology- even if they say there are. because when they say they are fighting for ideological reasons, their reasoning will almost always contradict itself- for instance, fighting for jesus, a pacifist and a peacemaker!

7 civilians killed in US-British raids: Iraq

AFP [ SUNDAY, NOVEMBER 17, 2002 12:57:56 AM ]

BAGHDAD: US and British warplanes killed seven Iraqis and wounded four others in air raids on "civilian installations" in the southern province of Najaf, a military spokesman said Saturday.


"Seven civilians were killed and four others wounded" in the raid by US and British planes on Friday night in Najaf province, some 200 km south of Baghdad, the spokesman said, cited by the state INA news agency.


"The American and British murderers have committed a new crime against the Iraqi people," he said.


The planes, based in Kuwait, carried out 48 sorties against several targets in the south, he added.


"Our missile batteries and anti-aircraft defences resisted these planes, forcing them to flee to their bases," he said.


The Pentagon had said on Friday that US warplanes bombed an air defence communications facility in southern Iraq after coalition aircraft came under Iraqi fire in what it described as a violation of last week's UN Security Council resolution.


The US Central Command said the target of the strike was an air defence communications facility in Najaf.


A defence official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said US warplanes have come under surface-to-air fire from Iraqi forces 11 times since UN Security Council Resolution 1441 was passed November 8.


Besides setting out the terms of new UN arms inspections, the resolution ordered Iraq not to take or threaten hostile acts against any member state "taking action to uphold any council resolution."


The latest US air strike was the second since the resolution was unanimously approved by the 15-member UN Security Council.


Iraq has routinely fired on US and British aircraft over southern and northern Iraq since 1998, when it shut down the first UN arms inspection regime.


The no-fly zones were imposed by the Western powers after the 1991 Gulf War to stop Iraqi attacks on Shiite Muslim and Kurdish minorities but are not explicitly covered by any UN resolution.


it would be interesting if iraq were to blatantly bomb our cities, becuase we were trying to defend ourselves from it.

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Originally posted by trancedfarmer religion wasnt the cause- stupid people were the cause! stupid stupid people... most religions are against violent force. and when popes declare holy wars and shit like that, what are they fighting for in reality- almost always for a culture, a race or an irreligious dogma, never for an ideology- even if they say there are. because when they say they are fighting for ideological reasons, their reasoning will almost always contradict itself- for instance, fighting for jesus, a pacifist and a peacemaker!

well what is your point then?

'stupid people' will always exist and thats hardly an excuse, because people with that much power *may* be stupid in some sense, but never overall...


and saying that something like the Crusades(Christianity) was fought for Jesus is also no good. nobody starts war *because* of jesus, they simply use the difference in religion as a catalyst, and then money, power, etc do the rest|

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'That's like telling a Kodiak bear to stop fcking older men.'

dont blame religion... thats what im saying. having studied religion, i dont see how one can argue that religions have been the cause of most wars.. cultural differences and territorial disputes have been the cause of most wars...


ill have to admit though... i have a very different perception of religion than most other people do- i think...

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Originally posted by trancedfarmer dont blame religion... thats what im saying. having studied religion, i dont see how one can argue that religions have been the cause of most wars.. cultural differences and territorial disputes have been the cause of most wars... ill have to admit though... i have a very different perception of religion than most other people do- i think...

well, maybe you should expound that perception to aid in our understanding.

religion HAs, and always will be one of the biggest and most important ways to explain and represent cultural differences in society. i really dont know why you think its not influential in wartime.

you may yourself be religious, but that isnt even the point. its simply that religion is so important to some that dying for it is a non-issue. that has certainly influenced war, and continues today|

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'That's like telling a Kodiak bear to stop fcking older men.'